Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1758836AbXFQDGk (ORCPT ); Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:06:40 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1752608AbXFQDGb (ORCPT ); Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:06:31 -0400 Received: from keil-draco.com ([216.193.185.50]:50179 "EHLO mail.keil-draco.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1752024AbXFQDGb (ORCPT ); Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:06:31 -0400 From: Daniel Hazelton To: Alexandre Oliva Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3 Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:06:13 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 Cc: Bron Gondwana , Ingo Molnar , Alan Cox , Linus Torvalds , Greg KH , debian developer , david@lang.hm, Tarkan Erimer , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Andrew Morton References: <200706161817.36657.dhazelton@enter.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200706162306.14516.dhazelton@enter.net> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 7372 Lines: 152 On Saturday 16 June 2007 21:49:56 Alexandre Oliva wrote: > On Jun 16, 2007, Daniel Hazelton wrote: > > On Saturday 16 June 2007 15:27:37 Alexandre Oliva wrote: > >> On Jun 16, 2007, Daniel Hazelton wrote: > >> > I don't see how TiVO has done this. They have placed no restrictions > >> > on *modification* at all. What they have done is placed a restriction > >> > on *REPLACEMENT* of the program. > >> > >> Technicality. In order for the software to remain free (which is what > >> the GPL is all about), the user must not be stopped from adapting the > >> software to suit his needs and running it for any purpose. TiVo > >> places restrictions on it. It's really this simple. > > > > Your arguments are all based on technicalities, so why are you > > complaining when I do the same? > > My arguments are based on the intent behind the license, its spirit. But each of those arguments is based on a technicality. By your reasoning I could kill everybody living in the middle east to stop the wars there and not be wrong - after all, you say "But I'm using those technicalities to show the letter and spirit of the license" - ie: "The ends justify the means". > You keep falling back to legal technicalities, that have zero to do > with the interpretation of the intent. > > That's why. > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law Do you know how many lawyers make a living because the "spirit" of a law has no legal weight? > > As it stands there is *NOTHING* that singular distinction makes all the > > difference in the world. What you are arguing - based on your *BELIEF* > > that such *REPLACEMENT* is a modification. > > Maybe modification is not the best word, because it carries a lot of > legal background from copyright law. > > How about adaptation. From freedom #1, freedom to study the software > and adapt it to your needs. Do you see how tivoization imposes an > artificial restriction to this freedom? Nothing stopping people from doing that with the GPL'd software running on a TiVO. > > If you want I'll go dig out the exact place where RMS said that he > > didn't care about hardware. > > This is still true. This is not about the hardware. This is about > the software, and how the user is stopped from adapting it to her own > needs, while the vendor saves this prerogative to itself. > > > That your right to configure a device ends at the point where it > > connects to a network? Well, unless you want to sacrifice *ALL* the > > stuff that makes a TiVO actually worth using, you *HAVE* to connect > > it to their network. > > So, if you visit www.fsfla.org, I 0w|\| your computer? > > If you join a bit torrent, I can replace the operating system on your > computer? > > Sorry, I don't buy that. You're leaving something out of this > picture, and that's probably quite important. Nope. Because I'm connecting the the *INTERNET*. The internet is not owned by any one person or "legal entity" - therefore there is nobody that can demand a certain configuration. Note that I also made it a point to mention that it only applies to certain classes of networks - in the US there are laws that remove the "complete control over configuration" from telecommunications companies. But get a cable-modem in the US and your ISP has the right to configure it in *ANY* way they choose. The TiVO service runs as a network - and a non-public one at that. They own the network, they control what hardware and with what configurations is allowed to connect. Whats more is that they have the right to actively control that configuration. You do realize, Alexandre, that you can't make me look stupid by just cutting out a part of a statement I've made and making silly comments about it. If you are going to quote something I've said, make sure you quote the *ENTIRE* effective part and not just the bit you think will make you look smart. All it does is make you look like an ass. > >> If these are not restrictions on the freedoms that the GPL is designed > >> to protect to ensure that Free Software remains Free for all its > >> users, I don't know what is. > > > > "Free as in beer" is the phrasing used, I believe. > > Huh? Are you implying that the Free Software foundation wrote this > meaning "zero cost"? Nope. I was making sure that you understood your own propaganda. "Free as in beer" - if I get a free beer I'm getting the beer, not the glass. If you aren't intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying: I get the software and *ALL* rights to it that everyone *BUT* the licensor has under the GPL. What you are doing is saying "It is what is said, but not what is meant." The funniest part of it is that you are claiming that the "spirit" of the GPL is to force each licensee to give up *MORE* rights than they are asked to. In other words... TiVO is a licensee of the kernel - they received certain rights through the GPL that they are required to pass along to anyone they give a copy to. Those rights are passed on. What they don't do is allow a copy of the "covered work" to run on the hardware - copies that might do things like allow people to break the copyright on content that the box can create copies of. The thing is, I already know your answer. It's in the mail that this is a reply to. The "spirit of the law" is something everyone wishes people would follow. But each person has their own interpretation of what the "Spirit" is and there is no real way to know what the "spirit" of a law is. Because language is such a slippery beast even the writings of the people that wrote the law can't define what the "spirit" of a law is. I've repeated myself to many times about the unreliability of human testimony on the topic. So what is being done by you and everyone else that is part of the FSF is doing is saying "Our view of the 'Spirit' of the license is the only correct one. Everyone else is wrong." You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. The FSF is also entitled to it's opinion. But as has been shown, that opinion may not be correct. And it is a simple to prove fact that a large number of people hold a different opinion. > > If you have such a respect for peoples freedoms - and I don't doubt > > that you actually believe you do - then why are you stripping > > freedoms from people? > > Because they're disrespecting others' freedoms. Freedoms aren't > absolute. One's freedom ends where another's freedom starts. > Tivoization exceeds the hardware manufacturer's freedoms and > disrespects users' freedoms and disrespect some author's ethical > intent. By this logic I could release software under a license that says "if you want to use this in a commercial product you have to send any person who buys the product a copy of the complete technical specifications - including any cryptographic keys - on request." And claim that its protecting the rights of the end-user in regards to my software. - Oh, wait, the FSF beat me to it with the GPL3! DRH -- Dialup is like pissing through a pipette. Slow and excruciatingly painful. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/