To: Daniel Hazelton <dhazelton@enter.net>
Cc: Alexandre Oliva <aoliva@redhat.com>, Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmail.fm>,
       linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3
References: <or645qfn99.fsf@oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
	<200706170008.17477.dhazelton@enter.net>
	<87sl8qwusg.fsf@graviton.dyn.troilus.org>
	<200706171418.38844.dhazelton@enter.net>
From: Michael Poole <mdpoole@troilus.org>
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:46:05 -0400
In-Reply-To: <200706171418.38844.dhazelton@enter.net> (Daniel Hazelton's message of "Sun\, 17 Jun 2007 14\:18\:38 -0400")
Message-ID: <87fy4qwhaq.fsf@graviton.dyn.troilus.org>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
Content-Length: 4062
Lines: 83

Daniel Hazelton writes:

> On Sunday 17 June 2007 09:54:39 Michael Poole wrote:
>> Daniel Hazelton writes:
>> > But your server doesn't run the internet. TiVO may use phone lines to
>> > connect a device to their server (and this is an example - I don't know
>> > how TiVO devices actually connect) but the network being connected to has
>> > a single owner who can set such terms.
>> >
>> > I'll repeat, in full, my earlier examples of this:
>> > The first:
>> > I buy a cable modem. Until the second I connect the cable-line to it so I
>> > can get a connection to the internet I can configure it in whatever
>> > manner I please. The second the line is connected, even though I *OWN*
>> > the hardware, I lose all control over its configuration.
>> >
>> > The second:
>> > I buy a DSL modem. Until I want to actually connect to the internet it
>> > can have whatever settings I want it to have. The second I want to
>> > connect to the internet it has to be configured the way that the ISP
>> > wants.
>>
>> Jung va gur jbeyq znxrf lbh guvax gurer vf n hfrshy nanybtl
>> orgjrra pbzzhavpngvba fgnaqneqf naq pbclevtug yvprafrf?
>>
>> One moment, let me retune.
>>
>> What in the world makes you think there is a useful analogy
>> between communication standards and copyright licenses?
>
> I don't. I was *REPEATING* an example of how TiVO has a *RIGHT* to change the 
> kernel or any other facet of the device connecting to their network. That 
> right *ISN'T* tied to copyright - as you have stated. Since it isn't, why is 
> the FSF trying to mandate that it is with the tivoization clauses in GPLv3?

The FSF *ISN'T* trying to mandate what *CONNECTS* to *TiVO's*
*NETWORK*.  *BOY* *ISN'T* *SHOUTING* *FUN*?  If Tivo wants to restrict
what connects to their network, the GPL and FSF will not stop them.
The major new (relative to GPLv2) things the FSF is trying to restrict
are new technical and legal methods that software distributors have
tried to use to convert free software into non-free software.

Tivo's right to dictate or change aspects of devices connecting to
their network is very much tied to copyright: Tivo needs appropriate
license if they are modifying or distributing anyone else's work.  I
am not sure why you think Tivo's right to free association trumps its
freely entered obligations to copyright owners.

>> Neither law nor common sense give much common ground to the two,
>> except in the general sense of two parties interacting.  One is a set
>> of rules so the two can interact through some information channel.
>> The other is a set of rules so that one can exploit a creative work
>> developed by the other.
>>
>> I suppose that you think it is acceptable for someone to offer access
>> to binary and source versions of GPLed software (with or without
>> modifications from commonly available versions) -- but only on the
>> condition that people never download the source versions?  That
>> certainly corresponds to the idea that Tivo can keep proprietary
>> extensions to the kernel if Tivo's customers want to connect to Tivo's
>> network services.
>
> Nope. Because that isn't a right they have that is disconnected from copyright 
> law. Or did you not read the entire post and just decide to try and make me 
> look stupid?

I read your post, but it was full of nonsense.  Tivo has every right
to restrict what connects to their network.  Tivo does not have the
right to infringe copyrights in order to make that restriction
effective.

You have said -- using enough words that you probably deceived
yourself -- that if Tivo distributes a specially mangled version of
Linux in order to restrict what connects to their network, and they
keep the mangling method proprietary, the GPL cannot shed light on
whether that hoarding is allowed.  Wrong: it can and does.

Michael Poole
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/