Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S932363AbXFRPvB (ORCPT ); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:51:01 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1757215AbXFRPuy (ORCPT ); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:50:54 -0400 Received: from allen.werkleitz.de ([80.190.251.108]:60559 "EHLO allen.werkleitz.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1755871AbXFRPux (ORCPT ); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:50:53 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:50:16 +0200 From: Johannes Stezenbach To: Alexandre Oliva Cc: Linus Torvalds , Al Viro , Bernd Schmidt , Alan Cox , Ingo Molnar , Daniel Hazelton , Greg KH , debian developer , david@lang.hm, Tarkan Erimer , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Andrew Morton Message-ID: <20070618155016.GA31892@linuxtv.org> References: <20070615101007.0cbfd078@the-village.bc.nu> <4673CA7C.5040207@t-online.de> <20070616181902.GB21478@ftp.linux.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 84.190.137.81 Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:23:22 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on allen.werkleitz.de) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3136 Lines: 84 On Sun, Jun 17, 2007, Alexandre Oliva wrote: > > Serious, what's so hard to understand about: > > no tivoization => more users able to tinker their formerly-tivoized > computers => more users make useful modifications => more > contributions in kind > > ? > > Sure, there's a downside too: > > no tivoization => fewer contributions from manufacturers that demand > on tivoization > > > My perception is that the first easily dominates the second, and so > you are better off without tivoization. You seem to focus on _preserving the four freedoms_, however the FSF also has the goal of _promoting free software_. This goal is even written down in the GPLv2 itself, in section 10. I think those two goals are somewhat conflicting. If you want to win people for free software, you need to make it easy for them to accept your ideas. However, in order to make it easy you have to make compromises wrt the four freedoms. The FSF apparently has decided that they won't compromise on the freedoms as stated in The Free Software Definition. The message they send out is "if you don't agree to our ethical principles, get lost." OTOH Linus has decided he wants "world domination". So he makes it easy for other people to join by saying "if you know what tit-for-tat means, welcome." On the surface this might look like two totally different goals. But IMHO it's not so much the goal which is different, but the _strategy_ to reach the goal. In the end the Linux people also want truly free software, they just believe they can get there without forcing people. Honestly, I think Linus' strategy has been much more successful so far than the FSF's. Of course there is no Linux system without GNU software, that's not the point. But I think without Linus' lenient interpretation of the GPLv2 there would be much less people using free software than there are today. If you look at the lenght of this thread, don't you realize that even when you talk to software developers on a mailing list dealing with free software/open source, you have trouble to get acceptance for your fundamentalistic view of the ethical principles of free software? And you haven't even started to talk to the business people, executives and lawyers which you need to convince if you want to make free software ubiquitous. "We have high ethical standards" is something these people don't understand or care about. "It's a bargain, you can use it for free and all you have to do is give back your changes" is what might work to win them. The bottom line is that I think your perception is completely wrong. For sure I would like to be able to change the software in my TiVo, too, but when I look at the big picture then I think it's more important to have free software in every device, on every computer, and accept that a few "unfree" devices along the way are a price worth to pay. Johannes - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/