Return-Path: <linux-kernel-owner+w=401wt.eu-S932177AbXFRTA7@vger.kernel.org>
Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand
	id S932177AbXFRTA7 (ORCPT <rfc822;w@1wt.eu>);
	Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:00:59 -0400
Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S932139AbXFRTAY
	(ORCPT <rfc822;linux-kernel-outgoing>);
	Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:00:24 -0400
Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.181]:29335 "EHLO
	wa-out-1112.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org
	with ESMTP id S1765983AbXFRTAV (ORCPT
	<rfc822;linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>);
	Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:00:21 -0400
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=gmail.com; s=beta;
        h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth;
        b=oPXOzrl6ux7GcbTjR3MJxsqGHf//tdXVvkplIpTOOaqY9nt37076qIq3LZI2//Fmpe3QItxOXSL9ocvrUj1o4dgG7uWAVnhywrDAuMxfEGawYOVM6Y62hirdtMy1PpepBfGbFVBHPvySPiYcxxBDogvD4srz0jVsXJylM1W6CjU=
Message-ID: <161717d50706181200p304e5ca0ib83733395415e0f7@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:00:20 -0400
From: "Dave Neuer" <mr.fred.smoothie@pobox.com>
To: "Alexandre Oliva" <aoliva@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3
Cc: "Greg KH" <greg@kroah.com>, "Al Viro" <viro@ftp.linux.org.uk>,
       "Daniel Hazelton" <dhazelton@enter.net>,
       "Bron Gondwana" <brong@fastmail.fm>, "Ingo Molnar" <mingo@elte.hu>,
       "Alan Cox" <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
       "Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
       "debian developer" <debiandev@gmail.com>, david@lang.hm,
       "Tarkan Erimer" <tarkan@netone.net.tr>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
       "Andrew Morton" <akpm@linux-foundation.org>
In-Reply-To: <orabuxcefc.fsf@oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
References: <or645qfn99.fsf@oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
	 <200706161817.36657.dhazelton@enter.net>
	 <orodjfmjsr.fsf@oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
	 <200706162306.14516.dhazelton@enter.net>
	 <orwsy3l0jv.fsf@oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
	 <20070617051451.GD21478@ftp.linux.org.uk>
	 <orps3vjf93.fsf@oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
	 <20070618154549.GB6041@kroah.com>
	 <orabuxcefc.fsf@oliva.athome.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
X-Google-Sender-Auth: 842e09ef8ed443bd
Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Content-Length: 2202
Lines: 44

On 6/18/07, Alexandre Oliva <aoliva@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> Seriously, looking only at the downside of anti-tivoization (tivoizer
> might turn us down), without even acknowledging that, should the
> tivoizer change practice and respect users' freedoms, you'd be able to
> get far more contributions from all those users, is typical minimax
> strategy.

<snip>

> Every time you enable someone to disrespect other users' freedoms WRT
> your software, you cut yourself out of some contributions that user
> could make.  Even if you completely disregard the moral and ethical
> aspects of software freedom, the open source mentality inherently
> depends on the notion of respect for others' freedoms.  You only reap
> the benefits of open source when the user gets the freedoms respected.

Alexandre, while I backed you up on the whole "spirit of the GPL
hasn't changed" thing, I think you are wrong here. As Jesper, Johannes
and others have already pointed out (in a couple of the very few
cogent non-flames since this thread started), we undoubtedly get more
back in the form of software contributions from paid developers of
TiVO-like companies than from the very few end users with the skill to
hack the software or the inclination to aquire said skill. The simple
fact is that most end users of most electronic devices don't care
about the Freeness of the software, they care if their device works.

If you disregard the ethical dimension, I think it's hard to argue w/
a straight face that Linus' stance is wrong from a pragmatic
standpoint.

The problem is that the people saying "just don't buy TiVOs" know full
well that because the number of end users who care is so small, they
have _no_ economic power to change the situation, and that's why
people who do consider this an ethical issue want to leverage the
power the copyright holders have both legally and by virtue of their
expertise to force the hardware vendors to cooperate w/ end users.

Dave
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/