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[2620:137:e000::1:20]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id f7-20020a056a00238700b0056e69d7f44asi3832389pfc.113.2022.11.18.03.19.15; Fri, 18 Nov 2022 03:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 2620:137:e000::1:20 as permitted sender) client-ip=2620:137:e000::1:20; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@aruba.it header.s=a1 header.b=JGqvX7du; spf=pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 2620:137:e000::1:20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S241706AbiKRK0T (ORCPT + 91 others); Fri, 18 Nov 2022 05:26:19 -0500 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:51648 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S241556AbiKRK0N (ORCPT ); Fri, 18 Nov 2022 05:26:13 -0500 X-Greylist: delayed 60 seconds by postgrey-1.37 at lindbergh.monkeyblade.net; Fri, 18 Nov 2022 02:26:08 PST Received: from smtpcmd0757.aruba.it (smtpcmd0757.aruba.it [62.149.156.57]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0F191536 for ; Fri, 18 Nov 2022 02:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.212] ([213.215.163.55]) by Aruba Outgoing Smtp with ESMTPSA id vyYSoWJZbsCm6vyYToNwps; Fri, 18 Nov 2022 11:25:06 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aruba.it; s=a1; t=1668767106; bh=lmcTkQjzYi2JgWFLL0LIn8V2DLjqxk4o6DivU+mgee8=; h=Subject:From:To:Date:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=JGqvX7ducLJ5yAAncjRAu0wfWE7+6uvZoHg8Kt46/cP2bPJdjBw70woiKcVVoOanz YZaxT6qz6nt7erI7DIVNTQcKuoh15qK1ZAdBBfP0nTfuRZCVOyQ7pc9eBYxcXig7vZ heEScmzrA32vV84W1cAC9nTmrIv7PZKLyOM82bgJlwppzZlRk6lndabTPmX4gq0672 kYkd0of+990J+KT2eUTuMUEt/8g6R9xLHPPV/uiapS5SnuDOUS6v8xXu2quskQLwlC p4lf161wmlunZW5fzzzbyO1ifaN/+1kqsC2I2Dqw0nMesludLPhIbgnVlTimKWcbAt Tn4/9XqWhkinw== Message-ID: <7b575cface09a2817ac53485507985a7fef7b835.camel@egluetechnologies.com> Subject: Re: [PATCH RESEND] can: j1939: do not wait 250ms if the same addr was already claimed From: Devid Antonio Filoni To: Oleksij Rempel , David Jander Cc: Kurt Van Dijck , Robin van der Gracht , kernel@pengutronix.de, linux-can@vger.kernel.org, Oleksij Rempel , Oliver Hartkopp , Marc Kleine-Budde , "David S. Miller" , Jakub Kicinski , Paolo Abeni , Maxime Jayat , kbuild test robot , netdev@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 11:25:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20221118060647.GE12278@pengutronix.de> References: <20220510042609.GA10669@pengutronix.de> <20220511084728.GD10669@pengutronix.de> <20220511110649.21cc1f65@erd992> <20220511162247.2cf3fb2e@erd992> <3566cba652c64641603fd0ad477e2c90cd77655b.camel@egluetechnologies.com> <20221117162251.5e5933c1@erd992> <20221118060647.GE12278@pengutronix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.44.4-0ubuntu1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfIU1zxwt0YEAcTZc6jcgue46NlY/s2Vjxeir3e1o8nzz/Pk/AHEPUaKRkPDTLjJODUheCLc/+Bo3LWOpmTWHPYF93GMrkneJXNjZnTTq6jC0q9Bpb9WG q1Lek/jgb1IdIleZ06K8gYIFIVxYT9YafSpoHDKj0d8Yt/fGqx16iNeRf/ENwGnJXVoL7DBSAsZBG24fQcH3QNuEu47ZOiGckm5l8YpV5RBGzryLYzm4RNe7 NLPvxJe1u/ZtStoXP+e7C9z+dREAJJxVtbdRUd96MIg21pywUa4n7HQqq5kT2ntVu0LOouN5g+UWnxYJuuQ7FgCWqgoeazeb0c672yIgvqZVxCcVQKiSMsm8 XvObM36rnUyilaYZKKjkF1IcDfrbiDX8r+8n8AkQuWqQpyJMHPmxEHO9NrA49P0OP818OauOuv1kGPFvetlm5PL7+z75BsyF3P51r3KDSv4aAWSGAULBB2gO Y+sD/KeYbbixmTm1RxAbckVBef/PsvzcDhPjPgWzt0XdpbozA9OmSxG9PHQfz4NEt0A4CIYm1hzzThxpoj1B7ImP4RHveJp5nkau4D3HvdUJrmhk9Y0fA/Em 9wx2M2d0Ls1cI/MYBoohST07aC3d01Yuy/EJoBJ42o+7Hcanld4rDI5Hv5k3HmmfabHA3G7nvwEqamdcv6GFLpchUuybRvksrDecqTG1BPIMfrkyvJlDSIQk 8WrNoNWq9j8= X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on lindbergh.monkeyblade.net Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Fri, 2022-11-18 at 07:06 +0100, Oleksij Rempel wrote: > On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 04:22:51PM +0100, David Jander wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Nov 2022 15:08:20 +0100 > > Devid Antonio Filoni wrote: > >=20 > > > On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 11:46 +0200, Devid Antonio Filoni wrote: > > > > Hi David, > > > >=20 > > > > On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 16:22 +0200, David Jander wrote: =20 > > > > > Hi Devid, > > > > >=20 > > > > > On Wed, 11 May 2022 14:55:04 +0200 > > > > > Devid Antonio Filoni < > > > > > devid.filoni@egluetechnologies.com =20 > > > > > > wrote: =20 > > > > > =20 > > > > > > On Wed, 2022-05-11 at 11:06 +0200, David Jander wrote: =20 > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > On Wed, 11 May 2022 10:47:28 +0200 > > > > > > > Oleksij Rempel < > > > > > > > o.rempel@pengutronix.de > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > wrote: =20 > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > i'll CC more J1939 users to the discussion. =20 > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > Thanks for the CC. > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 01:00:41PM +0200, Devid Antonio Fil= oni wrote: =20 > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2022-05-10 at 06:26 +0200, Oleksij Rempel wrote: = =20 > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 09, 2022 at 09:04:06PM +0200, Kurt Van Dijc= k wrote: =20 > > > > > > > > > > > On ma, 09 mei 2022 19:03:03 +0200, Devid Antonio Filo= ni wrote: =20 > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not explicitly stated in SAE J1939-21 and s= ome tools used for > > > > > > > > > > > > ISO-11783 certification do not expect this wait. = =20 > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > It will be interesting to know which certification tool= do not expect it and > > > > > > > > > > what explanation is used if it fails? > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, the current behaviour is not explicitely stated= , but nor is the opposite. > > > > > > > > > > > And if I'm not mistaken, this introduces a 250msec de= lay. > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > 1. If you want to avoid the 250msec gap, you should a= void to contest the same address. > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > 2. It's a balance between predictability and flexibil= ity, but if you try to accomplish both, > > > > > > > > > > > as your patch suggests, there is slight time-window u= ntil the current owner responds, > > > > > > > > > > > in which it may be confusing which node has the addre= ss. It depends on how much history > > > > > > > > > > > you have collected on the bus. > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure that this problem decreases with increasing = processing power on the nodes, > > > > > > > > > > > but bigger internal queues also increase this window. > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > It would certainly help if you describe how the curre= nt implementation fails. > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > Would decreasing the dead time to 50msec help in such= case. > > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > Kurt > > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > The test that is being executed during the ISOBUS complia= nce is the > > > > > > > > > following: after an address has been claimed by a CF (#1)= , another CF > > > > > > > > > (#2) sends a message (other than address-claim) using th= e same address > > > > > > > > > claimed by CF #1. > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > As per ISO11783-5 standard, if a CF receives a message, o= ther than the > > > > > > > > > address-claimed message, which uses the CF's own SA, then= the CF (#1): > > > > > > > > > - shall send the address-claim message to the Global addr= ess; > > > > > > > > > - shall activate a diagnostic trouble code with SPN =3D 2= 000+SA and FMI =3D > > > > > > > > > 31 > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > After the address-claim message is sent by CF #1, as per = ISO11783-5 > > > > > > > > > standard: > > > > > > > > > - If the name of the CF #1 has a lower priority then the = one of the CF > > > > > > > > > #2, the the CF #2 shall send its address-claim message an= d thus the CF > > > > > > > > > #1 shall send the cannot-claim-address message or shall e= xecute again > > > > > > > > > the claim procedure with a new address > > > > > > > > > - If the name of the CF #1 has higher priority then the o= f the CF #2, > > > > > > > > > then the CF #2 shall send the cannot-claim-address messag= e or shall > > > > > > > > > execute the claim procedure with a new address > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > Above conflict management is OK with current J1939 driver > > > > > > > > > implementation, however, since the driver always waits 25= 0ms after > > > > > > > > > sending an address-claim message, the CF #1 cannot set th= e DTC. The DM1 > > > > > > > > > message which is expected to be sent each second (as per = J1939-73 > > > > > > > > > standard) may not be sent. > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > Honestly, I don't know which company is doing the ISOBUS = compliance > > > > > > > > > tests on our products and which tool they use as it was c= hoosen by our > > > > > > > > > customer, however they did send us some CAN traces of pre= viously > > > > > > > > > performed tests and we noticed that the DM1 message is se= nt 160ms after > > > > > > > > > the address-claim message (but it may also be lower then = that), and this > > > > > > > > > is something that we cannot do because the driver blocks = the application > > > > > > > > > from sending it. > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > 28401.127146 1 18E6FFF0x Tx d 8 FE 26 FF FF FF FF F= F FF //Message > > > > > > > > > with other CF's address > > > > > > > > > 28401.167414 1 18EEFFF0x Rx d 8 15 76 D1 0B 00 86 0= 0 A0 //Address > > > > > > > > > Claim - SA =3D F0 > > > > > > > > > 28401.349214 1 18FECAF0x Rx d 8 FF FF C0 08 1F 01 F= F FF //DM1 > > > > > > > > > 28402.155774 1 18E6FFF0x Tx d 8 FE 26 FF FF FF FF F= F FF //Message > > > > > > > > > with other CF's address > > > > > > > > > 28402.169455 1 18EEFFF0x Rx d 8 15 76 D1 0B 00 86 0= 0 A0 //Address > > > > > > > > > Claim - SA =3D F0 > > > > > > > > > 28402.348226 1 18FECAF0x Rx d 8 FF FF C0 08 1F 02 F= F FF //DM1 > > > > > > > > > 28403.182753 1 18E6FFF0x Tx d 8 FE 26 FF FF FF FF F= F FF //Message > > > > > > > > > with other CF's address > > > > > > > > > 28403.188648 1 18EEFFF0x Rx d 8 15 76 D1 0B 00 86 0= 0 A0 //Address > > > > > > > > > Claim - SA =3D F0 > > > > > > > > > 28403.349328 1 18FECAF0x Rx d 8 FF FF C0 08 1F 03 F= F FF //DM1 > > > > > > > > > 28404.349406 1 18FECAF0x Rx d 8 FF FF C0 08 1F 03 F= F FF //DM1 > > > > > > > > > 28405.349740 1 18FECAF0x Rx d 8 FF FF C0 08 1F 03 F= F FF //DM1 > > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > > > Since the 250ms wait is not explicitly stated, IMHO it sh= ould be up to > > > > > > > > > the user-space implementation to decide how to manage it.= =20 > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > I think this is not entirely correct. AFAICS the 250ms wait i= s indeed > > > > > > > explicitly stated. > > > > > > > The following is taken from ISO 11783-5: > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > In "4.4.4.3 Address violation" it states that "If a CF receiv= es a message, > > > > > > > other than the address-claimed message, which uses the CF=E2= =80=99s own SA, then the > > > > > > > CF [...] shall send the address-claim message to the Global a= ddress." > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > So the CF shall claim its address again. But further down, in= "4.5.2 Address > > > > > > > claim requirements" it is stated that "...No CF shall begin, = or resume, > > > > > > > transmission on the network until 250 ms after it has success= fully claimed an > > > > > > > address". > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > At this moment, the address is in dispute. The affected CFs a= re not allowed to > > > > > > > send any other messages until this dispute is resolved, and t= he standard > > > > > > > requires a waiting time of 250ms which is minimally deemed ne= cessary to give > > > > > > > all participants time to respond and eventually dispute the a= ddress claim. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > If the offending CF ignores this dispute and keeps sending in= correct messages > > > > > > > faster than every 250ms, then effectively the other CF has no= chance to ever > > > > > > > resume normal operation because its address is still disputed= . > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > According to 4.4.4.3 it is also required to set a DTC, but it= will not be > > > > > > > allowed to send the DM1 message unless the address dispute is= resolved. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > This effectively leads to the offending CF to DoS the affecte= d CF if it keeps > > > > > > > sending offending messages. Unfortunately neither J1939 nor I= SObus takes into > > > > > > > account adversarial behavior on the CAN network, so we cannot= do anything > > > > > > > about this. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > As for the ISObus compliance tool that is mentioned by Devid,= IMHO this > > > > > > > compliance tool should be challenged and fixed, since it is b= roken. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > The networking layer is prohibiting the DM1 message to be sen= t, and the > > > > > > > networking layer has precedence above all superior protocol l= ayers, so the > > > > > > > diagnostics layer is not able to operate at this moment. > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > > =20 > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > Hi David, > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > I get your point but I'm not sure that it is the correct interp= retation > > > > > > that should be applied in this particular case for the followin= g > > > > > > reasons: > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > - In "4.5.2 Address claim requirements" it is explicitly stated= that > > > > > > "The CF shall claim its own address when initializing and when > > > > > > responding to a command to change its NAME or address" and this= seems to =20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > The standard unfortunately has a track record of ignoring a lot o= f scenarios > > > > > and corner cases, like in this instance the fact that there can a= ppear new > > > > > participants on the bus _after_ initialization has long finished,= and it would > > > > > need to claim its address again in that case. > > > > >=20 > > > > > But look at point d) of that same section: "No CF shall begin, or= resume, > > > > > transmission on the network until 250 ms after it has successfull= y claimed an > > > > > address (Figure 4). This does not apply when responding to a requ= est for > > > > > address claimed." > > > > >=20 > > > > > So we basically have two situations when this will apply after th= e network is > > > > > up and running and a new node suddenly appears: > > > > >=20 > > > > > 1. The new node starts with a "Request for address claimed" mess= age, to > > > > > which your CF should respond with an "Address Claimed" message a= nd NOT wait > > > > > 250ms. > > > > >=20 > > > > > or > > > > >=20 > > > > > 2. The new node creates an addressing conflict either by claimin= g its address > > > > > without first sending a "request for address claimed" message or= (and this is > > > > > your case) simply using its address without claiming it first. > > > > >=20 > > > > > It is this second possibility where there is a conflict that must= be resolved, > > > > > and then you must wait 250ms after claiming the conflicting addre= ss for > > > > > yourself. > > > > > =20 > > > > > > completely ignore the "4.4.4.3 Address violation" that states t= hat the > > > > > > address-claimed message shall be sent also when "the CF receive= s a > > > > > > message, other than the address-claimed message, which uses the= CF's own > > > > > > SA". > > > > > > Please note that the address was already claimed by the CF, so = I think > > > > > > that the initialization requirements should not apply in this c= ase since > > > > > > all disputes were already resolved. =20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > Well, yes and no. The address was claimed before, yes, but then a= new node came > > > > > onto the bus and disputed that address. In that case the dispute = needs to be > > > > > resolved first. Imagine you would NOT wait 250ms, but the other C= F did > > > > > correctly claim its address, but it was you who did not receive t= hat message > > > > > for some reason. Now also assume that your own NAME has a lower p= riority than > > > > > the other CF. In this case you can send a "claimed address" messa= ge to claim > > > > > your address again, but it will be contested. If you don't wait f= or the > > > > > contestant, it is you who will be in violation of the protocol, b= ecause you > > > > > should have changed your own address but failed to do so. > > > > > =20 > > > > > > - If the offending CF ignores the dispute, as you said, then th= e other > > > > > > CF has no chance to ever resume normal operation and so the net= work > > > > > > cannot be aware that the other CF is not working correctly beca= use the > > > > > > offending CF is spoofing its own address. =20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > Correct. And like I said in my previous reply, this is unfortunat= ely how CAN, > > > > > J1939 and ISObus work. The whole network must cooperate and there= is no > > > > > consideration for malign or adversarial actors. > > > > > There are also a lot of possible corner cases that these standard= s > > > > > unfortunately do not take into account. Conformance test tools se= em to be even > > > > > more problematic and tend to have bugs quite often. I am still in= clined to > > > > > think this is the case with your test tool. > > > > > =20 > > > > > > This seems to make useless the > > > > > > requirement that states to activate the DTC in "4.4.4.3 Address > > > > > > violation". =20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > The requirement is not useless. You can still set and store the D= TC, just not > > > > > broadcast it to the network at that moment. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Best regards, > > > > >=20 > > > > > =20 > > > >=20 > > > > Thank you for your feedback and explanation. > > > > I asked the customer to contact the compliance company so that we c= an > > > > verify with them this particular use-case. I want to understand if = there > > > > is an application note or exception that states how to manage it or= if > > > > they implemented the test basing it on their own interpretation and= how > > > > it really works: supposing that the test does not check the DM1 > > > > presence, then the test could be passed even without sending the DM= 1 > > > > message during the 250ms after the adress-claimed message. > > > >=20 > > > > Best regards, > > > > Devid =20 > > >=20 > > > Hi David, all, > > >=20 > > > I'm sorry for resuming this discussion after a long time but I notice= d > > > that the driver forces the 250 ms wait even when responding to a requ= est > > > for address-claimed which is against point d) of ISO 11783-5 "4.5.2 > > > Address claim requirements": > > >=20 > > > No CF shall begin, or resume, transmission on the network until 250 m= s > > > after it has successfully claimed an address (see Figure 4), excep= t > > > when responding to a request for address-claimed. > > >=20 > > > IMHO the driver shall be able to detect above condition or shall not > > > force the 250 ms wait which should then be implemented, depending on = the > > > case, on user-space application side. > >=20 > > I am a bit out of the loop with this driver, but I think what you say i= s > > correct. The J1939 stack should NOT unconditionally stay silent for 250= ms > > after sending an Address Claimed message. It should specifically NOT do= so if > > it is just responding to a Request for Address Claimed message. > >=20 > > So if it is indeed so, that the J1939 stack will hold off sending messa= ges > > forcibly after sending an Address Claimed message as a reply to a Reque= st for > > Address Claimed, then I'd say this is a bug. > >=20 > > @Oleksij, can you confirm this? >=20 > I do not see any code path inside of the j1939 stack preventing sending > you anything by address. The only part which cares about address > claiming is net/can/j1939/address-claim.c and it will just not be able > to resolve name to address, because address claiming was not finished > jet. With other words, if you need to send responding to a request for > address-claimed, then just send it by using address instead of name. >=20 > Regards, > Oleksij Hi Oleksij, I'm sorry but I think I don't understand your proposal. If I send an address-claimed message binding the socket without the name (can_addr.j1939.name =3D J1939_NO_NAME), then the driver returns error EPROTO. If I send the address-claimed message binding the socket with the name, then the address-claimed message is sent successfully but other messages sent within 250 ms are not sent (error EADDRNOTAVAIL). Thank you, Devid