Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1764861AbXHQJC4 (ORCPT ); Fri, 17 Aug 2007 05:02:56 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1760649AbXHQJCn (ORCPT ); Fri, 17 Aug 2007 05:02:43 -0400 Received: from pentafluge.infradead.org ([213.146.154.40]:47572 "EHLO pentafluge.infradead.org" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1763817AbXHQJC3 (ORCPT ); Fri, 17 Aug 2007 05:02:29 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:44:48 +0530 (IST) From: Satyam Sharma X-X-Sender: satyam@enigma.security.iitk.ac.in To: Nick Piggin cc: Herbert Xu , Paul Mackerras , Linus Torvalds , Christoph Lameter , Chris Snook , Ilpo Jarvinen , "Paul E. McKenney" , Stefan Richter , Linux Kernel Mailing List , linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, Netdev , Andrew Morton , ak@suse.de, heiko.carstens@de.ibm.com, David Miller , schwidefsky@de.ibm.com, wensong@linux-vs.org, horms@verge.net.au, wjiang@resilience.com, cfriesen@nortel.com, zlynx@acm.org, rpjday@mindspring.com, jesper.juhl@gmail.com, segher@kernel.crashing.org Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/24] make atomic_read() behave consistently across all architectures In-Reply-To: <46C55E90.7010407@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: References: <18115.52863.638655.658466@cargo.ozlabs.ibm.com> <20070816053945.GB32442@gondor.apana.org.au> <18115.62741.807704.969977@cargo.ozlabs.ibm.com> <20070816070907.GA964@gondor.apana.org.au> <46C4ABA5.9010804@redhat.com> <18117.1287.779351.836552@cargo.ozlabs.ibm.com> <18117.6495.397597.582736@cargo.ozlabs.ibm.com> <20070817035342.GA14744@gondor.apana.org.au> <46C55E90.7010407@yahoo.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2049 Lines: 52 On Fri, 17 Aug 2007, Nick Piggin wrote: > Satyam Sharma wrote: > [...] > > Granted, the above IS buggy code. But, the stated objective is to avoid > > heisenbugs. ^^^^^^^^^^ > Anyway, why are you making up code snippets that are buggy in other > ways in order to support this assertion being made that lots of kernel > code supposedly depends on volatile semantics. Just reference the > actual code. Because the point is *not* about existing bugs in kernel code. At some point Chris Snook (who started this thread) did write that "If I knew of the existing bugs in the kernel, I would be sending patches for them, not this series" or something to that effect. The point is about *author expecations*. If people do expect atomic_read() (or a variant thereof) to have volatile semantics, why not give them such a variant? And by the way, the point is *also* about the fact that cpu_relax(), as of today, implies a full memory clobber, which is not what a lot of such loops want. (due to stuff mentioned elsewhere, summarized in that summary) > > And we have driver / subsystem maintainers such as Stefan > > coming up and admitting that often a lot of code that's written to use > > atomic_read() does assume the read will not be elided by the compiler. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (so it's about compiler barrier expectations only, though I fully agree that those who're using atomic_t as if it were some magic thing that lets them write lockless code are sorrily mistaken.) > So these are broken on i386 and x86-64? Possibly, but the point is not about existing bugs, as mentioned above. Some such bugs have been found nonetheless -- reminds me, can somebody please apply http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/linux/kernel/810674 ? Satyam - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/