Received: by 2002:a05:6358:11c7:b0:104:8066:f915 with SMTP id i7csp6101641rwl; Wed, 22 Mar 2023 06:36:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9kJZIG8+Q4UvUCN3QVvTdQ+/Fy8UDxu152B0rNyFN08hG/WTYHmyvYQg0xKCxr0LCjpp15 X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:7a1f:b0:ce:ca9:ab56 with SMTP id t31-20020a056a207a1f00b000ce0ca9ab56mr5380560pzh.34.1679492182993; Wed, 22 Mar 2023 06:36:22 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1679492182; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=UPhU7Uup+CwvZLaxM4KvinOHerHfTZOFpKHb9NjnIeNT5rvmkppjpVt8mDCabjOLIs QJ2oDJpHzgEK9sCI2k4H5EzdVrlPXGjvyAJK1nUrlIpAEjjcCWoo09znNVPxhpYeEDhu BU7co4yaBtIF4GwxbXRN+iZ3pvzw1LhVxuYvGQrMg+JvLHzz7wWYnZ4aoRtyP5H6JtuN pDq9TXJXbCE0JSdbxA3HHNHkJiDwdEeyxJj9RnwNh+wTgsnML6FxPsSmX9BTJkMOJ7cD nuJJcUsBDEzCjpnHo7R+DO0UvV1lxjQeoY5xyIczmPOeVENpETGV4u5UsHOEv/d/WBWd GpVA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-id:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:dkim-signature; bh=0BhUqkihiqoY/S89jX4MrGerxrgdsCByMEWhwt4Uu8w=; b=wgc0qQBSO9ZbEyY9gsBPEPWSBTT7wHroNvDLRjDLbORUIuT4G3CwX0YV/ouVulANvB LEY0Kgr7ae5901wYr46enZOKm3SOPT7VaD4aR972EFn24JGQ3WApkk7OFvPCiqG5ZmCZ gxfCeRDDH1c/UBoxpJx2/VZw+6VguelWoUefXI4Q6KLbkn6AS76V3oGV5/qst3RSkYfJ r/RjlUsm6b4KcPhtFQDXPnTnu+/pyL94xDJNbUJgpC37Np+0yOrLg5v6Cl0lG3P8eceU +g968Okz77BNhbNoODd39SfEB8s+XI3isH101VR7GCODX6+EwytpkYAmvgSugEXy9awC IcXw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@suse.com header.s=susede1 header.b=p2oEIxaF; spf=pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 2620:137:e000::1:20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=suse.com Return-Path: Received: from out1.vger.email (out1.vger.email. [2620:137:e000::1:20]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id l7-20020a056a00140700b005a8b55f540bsi15936627pfu.268.2023.03.22.06.36.11; Wed, 22 Mar 2023 06:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 2620:137:e000::1:20 as permitted sender) client-ip=2620:137:e000::1:20; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@suse.com header.s=susede1 header.b=p2oEIxaF; spf=pass (google.com: domain of linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org designates 2620:137:e000::1:20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=suse.com Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S229766AbjCVNf0 (ORCPT + 99 others); Wed, 22 Mar 2023 09:35:26 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:51498 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S229459AbjCVNfY (ORCPT ); Wed, 22 Mar 2023 09:35:24 -0400 Received: from smtp-out1.suse.de (smtp-out1.suse.de [IPv6:2001:67c:2178:6::1c]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E93371CADF for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2023 06:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de (imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de [192.168.254.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-521) server-digest SHA512) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-out1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82CAD33B66; Wed, 22 Mar 2023 13:35:21 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.com; s=susede1; t=1679492121; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=0BhUqkihiqoY/S89jX4MrGerxrgdsCByMEWhwt4Uu8w=; b=p2oEIxaFTztjDc1HcQrtLXYozgttFgklgC5TTCWHzK3Oz5wLYOPQ3EnYi5vZqgWH6ygStQ C0nxY46P4GqyJhz0wTpBBO3juB7g20YBpyrd1Gse66IHXNUX0VxH/AXcmZYVYXIQrJTrqL RCgv9gjxlukdv8Indk60FhWSvRE4yIc= Received: from imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de (imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de [192.168.254.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-521) server-digest SHA512) (No client certificate requested) by imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63ED713416; Wed, 22 Mar 2023 13:35:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dovecot-director2.suse.de ([192.168.254.65]) by imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de with ESMTPSA id xvOJFRkEG2QkBQAAMHmgww (envelope-from ); Wed, 22 Mar 2023 13:35:21 +0000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 14:35:20 +0100 From: Michal Hocko To: Marcelo Tosatti Cc: Christoph Lameter , Aaron Tomlin , Frederic Weisbecker , Andrew Morton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, Russell King , Huacai Chen , Heiko Carstens , x86@kernel.org, Vlastimil Babka Subject: Re: [PATCH v7 00/13] fold per-CPU vmstats remotely Message-ID: References: <20230320180332.102837832@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on lindbergh.monkeyblade.net Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Wed 22-03-23 08:23:21, Marcelo Tosatti wrote: > On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 11:13:02AM +0100, Michal Hocko wrote: > > On Mon 20-03-23 16:07:29, Marcelo Tosatti wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 07:25:55PM +0100, Michal Hocko wrote: > > > > On Mon 20-03-23 15:03:32, Marcelo Tosatti wrote: > > > > > This patch series addresses the following two problems: > > > > > > > > > > 1. A customer provided evidence indicating that a process > > > > > was stalled in direct reclaim: > > > > > > > > > This is addressed by the trivial patch 1. > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > 2. With a task that busy loops on a given CPU, > > > > > the kworker interruption to execute vmstat_update > > > > > is undesired and may exceed latency thresholds > > > > > for certain applications. > > > > > > > > Yes it can but why does that matter? > > > > > > It matters for the application that is executing and expects > > > not to be interrupted. > > > > Those workloads shouldn't enter the kernel in the first place, no? > > It depends on the latency requirements and individual system calls. > > > Otherwise the in kernel execution with all the direct or indirect > > dependencies (e.g. via locks) can throw any latency expectations off the > > window. > > > > > > > By having vmstat_shepherd flush the per-CPU counters to the > > > > > global counters from remote CPUs. > > > > > > > > > > This is done using cmpxchg to manipulate the counters, > > > > > both CPU locally (via the account functions), > > > > > and remotely (via cpu_vm_stats_fold). > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to Aaron Tomlin for diagnosing issue 1 and writing > > > > > the initial patch series. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Performance details for the kworker interruption: > > > > > > > > > > oslat 1094.456862: sys_mlock(start: 7f7ed0000b60, len: 1000) > > > > > oslat 1094.456971: workqueue_queue_work: ... function=vmstat_update ... > > > > > oslat 1094.456974: sched_switch: prev_comm=oslat ... ==> next_comm=kworker/5:1 ... > > > > > kworker 1094.456978: sched_switch: prev_comm=kworker/5:1 ==> next_comm=oslat ... > > > > > > > > > > The example above shows an additional 7us for the > > > > > > > > > > oslat -> kworker -> oslat > > > > > > > > > > switches. In the case of a virtualized CPU, and the vmstat_update > > > > > interruption in the host (of a qemu-kvm vcpu), the latency penalty > > > > > observed in the guest is higher than 50us, violating the acceptable > > > > > latency threshold for certain applications. > > > > > > > > I do not think we have ever promissed any specific latency guarantees > > > > for vmstat. These are statistics have been mostly used for debugging > > > > purposes AFAIK. I am not aware of any specific user space use case that > > > > would be latency sensitive. Your changelog doesn't go into details there > > > > either. > > > > > > There is a class of workloads for which response time can be > > > of interest. MAC scheduler is an example: > > > > > > https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10090368 > > > > Yes, I am not disputing low latency workloads in general. I am just > > saying that you haven't really established a very sound justification > > here. > > The -v7 cover letter was updated with additional details, > as you requested (perhaps you missed it): > > "Performance details for the kworker interruption: > > oslat 1094.456862: sys_mlock(start: 7f7ed0000b60, len: 1000) > oslat 1094.456971: workqueue_queue_work: ... function=vmstat_update ... > oslat 1094.456974: sched_switch: prev_comm=oslat ... ==> next_comm=kworker/5:1 ... > kworker 1094.456978: sched_switch: prev_comm=kworker/5:1 ==> next_comm=oslat ... > > The example above shows an additional 7us for the > > oslat -> kworker -> oslat > > switches. In the case of a virtualized CPU, and the vmstat_update > interruption in the host (of a qemu-kvm vcpu), the latency penalty > observed in the guest is higher than 50us, violating the acceptable > latency threshold for certain applications." Yes, I have seen that but it doesn't really give a wider context to understand why those numbers matter. > > Of course there are workloads which do not want to conflict with > > any in kernel house keeping. Those have to be configured and implemented > > very carefully though. Vmstat as such should not collide with those > > workloads as long as they do not interact with the kernel in a way > > counters are updated. Is this hard or impossible to avoid? > > The practical problem we have been seeing is -RT app initialization. > For example: > > 1) mlock(); > 2) enter loop without system calls OK, that is what I have kinda expected. Would have been better to mention it explicitly. I expect this to be a very common pattern and vmstat might not be the only subsystem that could interfere later on. Would it make more sense to address this by a more generic solution? E.g. a syscall to flush all per-cpu caches so they won't interfere later unless userspace hits the kernel path in some way (e.g. flush_cpu_caches(cpu_set_t cpumask, int flags)? The above pattern could then be implemented as do_initial_setup() sched_setaffinity(getpid(), cpumask); flush_cpu_caches(cpumask, 0); do_userspace_loop() -- Michal Hocko SUSE Labs