Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:37:53 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:37:39 -0500 Received: from mx2.elte.hu ([157.181.151.9]:62867 "HELO mx2.elte.hu") by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:35:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:32:26 +0100 (CET) From: Ingo Molnar Reply-To: To: Rik van Riel Cc: Linus Torvalds , Benjamin LaHaise , Davide Libenzi , Kernel Mailing List Subject: Re: in defense of the linux-kernel mailing list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Rik van Riel wrote: > > And no, I don't think IRC counts either, sorry. > > Whether you think it counts or not, IRC is where most stuff is > happening nowadays. most of the useful traffic on lkml cannot be expressed well on IRC. While IRC might be useful as an additional form of communication channel, email lists IMO should still be the main driving force of Linux kernel development, else we'll only concentrate on those minute ideas that can be expressed in 1-2 lines on irc and which are simple enough to be understood until the next message comes. Also, the lack of reliable archiving of IRC traffic prevents newcomers of reproducing the thought process afterwards. While IRC might result in the seasoned kernel developer doing the next super-patch quickly, it will in the end effect only isolate and alienate newcomers and will only result in an aging, personality-driven elitist old-boys network and a dying OS. Regarding the use of IRC as the main development medium for the Linux kernel - the fast pace of IRC often prevents deeper thoughts - while this is definitely the point for many people who use IRC, it cannot result in a much better kernel. [that having said, i'm using irc on a daily basis as well so this is not irc-bashing, but i rarely use it for development purposes.] It's true that reading off-topic emails on lkml isnt a wise use of developer powers either, but this has to be taken into account just like spam - it's the price of having an open forum. and honestly, much of the complaints about lkml's quality are exagerated. What you dont take into account is the fact that while 3 or 5 years ago you found perhaps every email on lkml exciting and challenging, today you are an experienced kernel hacker and find perhaps 90% of the traffic 'boring'. I've just done a test - and perhaps i picked the wrong set of emails - but the majority of lkml traffic is pretty legitimate, and i would have found most of them 'interesting and exciting' just 5 years ago. Today i know what they mean and might find them less challenging to understand - but that is one of the bad side-effects of experience. Today there are more people on lkml, more bugs get reported, and more patches are discussed - so keeping up with lkml traffic is harder. Perhaps it might make sense to separate linux-kernel into two lists: linux-kernel-bugs and linux-kernel-devel (without moderation), but otherwise the current form and quality of discussions (knock on wood) is pretty OK i think. also, more formal emails match actual source code format better than the informal IRC traffic. So by being kindof forced to structure information into a larger set of ASCII text, it will also be the first step towards good kernel code. (on IRC one might be the super-hacker with a well-known nick, entering and exiting channels, being talked to by newbies. It might boost one's ego. But it should not cloud one's judgement.) Ingo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/