Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1757099AbXJ1SvB (ORCPT ); Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:51:01 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1752021AbXJ1Suw (ORCPT ); Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:50:52 -0400 Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:37605 "EHLO out1.smtp.messagingengine.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1751973AbXJ1Suv (ORCPT ); Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:50:51 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: V7+d2RZtd2HaM0oekh4UGT0wYGEVEcC6wWRHEkb/8FOg 1193597449 Message-ID: <4724DA20.1010609@imap.cc> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:51:12 +0100 From: Tilman Schmidt Organization: me - organized?? User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; de-AT; rv:1.8.1.4) Gecko/20070509 SeaMonkey/1.1.2 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Bunk CC: Greg KH , Simon Arlott , Chris Wright , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, Jan Engelhardt , Linus Torvalds , Andreas Gruenbacher , Thomas Fricaccia , Jeremy Fitzhardinge , James Morris , Crispin Cowan , Giacomo Catenazzi , Alan Cox Subject: Re: eradicating out of tree modules References: <20071023220649.5a76af82@laptopd505.fenrus.org> <55615.simon.1193226629@5ec7c279.invalid> <20071024125533.GE30533@stusta.de> <471F8AC5.9080300@simon.arlott.org.uk> <20071024223124.GI30533@stusta.de> <4721221A.1020309@imap.cc> <20071026025647.GC21408@kroah.com> <4721B77F.8070102@imap.cc> <20071026232653.GF30533@stusta.de> <47234F73.3040809@imap.cc> <20071028005555.GC23339@stusta.de> In-Reply-To: <20071028005555.GC23339@stusta.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1E7B146A77D51A5ECE7972C6" Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 4132 Lines: 107 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1E7B146A77D51A5ECE7972C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am 28.10.2007 02:55 schrieb Adrian Bunk: > Justifying anything with code with not GPL compatible licences has zero= =20 > relevance here. >=20 > And there's value in making life harder for such modules with=20 > questionable legality. As an example, consider people who experienced=20 > crashes of "the Linux kernel" caused by some binary-only driver. > Not that uncommon e.g. with some graphics drivers. > This harms the reputation of Linux as being stable. You are mixing up several distinct categories here: "out of tree" !=3D "non-GPL" !=3D "proprietary" !=3D "of questionable legality" !=3D "binary-only" !=3D "causing kernel crashes". > The solution is not to support proprietary drivers, the solution is to = > get open source replacements. So how do you propose to "get" those replacements? And what shall users do during the time this "getting" may take? > If it's low quality code doing something useful - well, how many hundre= d=20 > people are on Greg's list only waiting for some driver they could write= ? No idea. Obviously not enough to actually solve the problem. What solution do you propose? >> [D]o you think the world would >> be a better place if all the existing out-of-tree modules >> just ceased to exist, without any replacement? >=20 > With your "without any replacement" you needlessly excluded the=20 > reasonable solution: >=20 > The solution is that someone other than the author either takes the=20 > existing external code or rewrites it from scratch, submits it for=20 > inclusion into the kernel, and maintains it there. My "without any replacement" is just a description of reality. All current external code I am aware of continues to exist only because there is no in-kernel replacement. Again: how do you propose to bring that solution of yours to pass, how long do you think it will take, and what do you propose current users of out-of-tree modules do in the meantime? Without reasonable answers to these questions, your proposed solution itself hardly qualifies as reasonable. > Let me repeat that Greg has said he has hundreds of volunteers for such= =20 > tasks. Even with hundreds of volunteers, your proposed solution of just rewriting *all* external code in a way fit for inclusion into the kernel is an unachievable goal. Just look at the list on http://linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/OutOfTreeDrivers and try to answer why each of them is still out of tree. Hint: In most cases it's neither out of malice nor stupidity on the authors' part. Of course in-tree code is always better than out-of-tree code. But I maintain there will always be out-of-tree code (modules, drivers, whatever) that fills a real need not (though hopefully, just not yet) satisfied by any in-tree code. All I'm asking for is that you take a pragmatic stance with regard to that: not going to any great lengths to support it, but acknowledging its existence and legitimacy - and not inciting to deliberately break it. Thanks, Tilman --=20 Tilman Schmidt E-Mail: tilman@imap.cc Bonn, Germany Diese Nachricht besteht zu 100% aus wiederverwerteten Bits. Unge=C3=B6ffnet mindestens haltbar bis: (siehe R=C3=BCckseite) --------------enig1E7B146A77D51A5ECE7972C6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3rc1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHJNogMdB4Whm86/kRAsPPAJ489uVCUEKpWxpnsWuUO4mmV/WNigCfaUwF gU64Hl/nrSVrbH4bQIPLtaE= =nkDD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1E7B146A77D51A5ECE7972C6-- - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/