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From:   Zi Yan <ziy@nvidia.com>
To:     David Hildenbrand <david@redhat.com>
Cc:     Yu Zhao <yuzhao@google.com>, Ryan Roberts <ryan.roberts@arm.com>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
        Matthew Wilcox <willy@infradead.org>,
        Yin Fengwei <fengwei.yin@intel.com>,
        Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@arm.com>,
        Will Deacon <will@kernel.org>,
        Anshuman Khandual <anshuman.khandual@arm.com>,
        Yang Shi <shy828301@gmail.com>,
        "Huang, Ying" <ying.huang@intel.com>,
        Luis Chamberlain <mcgrof@kernel.org>,
        Itaru Kitayama <itaru.kitayama@gmail.com>,
        "Kirill A. Shutemov" <kirill.shutemov@linux.intel.com>,
        linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
        linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 2/5] mm: LARGE_ANON_FOLIO for improved performance
Date:   Fri, 04 Aug 2023 17:58:12 -0400
Message-ID: <60070B7E-5DC2-4CE1-8089-1A05DDDABA4C@nvidia.com>
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On 4 Aug 2023, at 17:30, David Hildenbrand wrote:

> On 04.08.23 23:26, Yu Zhao wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:13=E2=80=AFPM David Hildenbrand <david@redhat=
=2Ecom> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 04.08.23 23:00, Yu Zhao wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 2:23=E2=80=AFPM David Hildenbrand <david@redh=
at.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 04.08.23 10:27, Ryan Roberts wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/08/2023 00:50, Yu Zhao wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 6:43=E2=80=AFAM Ryan Roberts <ryan.roberts=
@arm.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> + Kirill
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 26/07/2023 10:51, Ryan Roberts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Introduce LARGE_ANON_FOLIO feature, which allows anonymous memo=
ry to be
>>>>>>>>> allocated in large folios of a determined order. All pages of t=
he large
>>>>>>>>> folio are pte-mapped during the same page fault, significantly =
reducing
>>>>>>>>> the number of page faults. The number of per-page operations (e=
=2Eg. ref
>>>>>>>>> counting, rmap management lru list management) are also signifi=
cantly
>>>>>>>>> reduced since those ops now become per-folio.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The new behaviour is hidden behind the new LARGE_ANON_FOLIO Kco=
nfig,
>>>>>>>>> which defaults to disabled for now; The long term aim is for th=
is to
>>>>>>>>> defaut to enabled, but there are some risks around internal
>>>>>>>>> fragmentation that need to be better understood first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When enabled, the folio order is determined as such: For a vma,=
 process
>>>>>>>>> or system that has explicitly disabled THP, we continue to allo=
cate
>>>>>>>>> order-0. THP is most likely disabled to avoid any possible inte=
rnal
>>>>>>>>> fragmentation so we honour that request.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise, the return value of arch_wants_pte_order() is used. =
For vmas
>>>>>>>>> that have not explicitly opted-in to use transparent hugepages =
(e.g.
>>>>>>>>> where thp=3Dmadvise and the vma does not have MADV_HUGEPAGE), t=
hen
>>>>>>>>> arch_wants_pte_order() is limited to 64K (or PAGE_SIZE, whichev=
er is
>>>>>>>>> bigger). This allows for a performance boost without requiring =
any
>>>>>>>>> explicit opt-in from the workload while limitting internal
>>>>>>>>> fragmentation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the preferred order can't be used (e.g. because the folio wo=
uld
>>>>>>>>> breach the bounds of the vma, or because ptes in the region are=
 already
>>>>>>>>> mapped) then we fall back to a suitable lower order; first
>>>>>>>>> PAGE_ALLOC_COSTLY_ORDER, then order-0.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +#define ANON_FOLIO_MAX_ORDER_UNHINTED \
>>>>>>>>> +             (ilog2(max_t(unsigned long, SZ_64K, PAGE_SIZE)) -=
 PAGE_SHIFT)
>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>> +static int anon_folio_order(struct vm_area_struct *vma)
>>>>>>>>> +{
>>>>>>>>> +     int order;
>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>> +     /*
>>>>>>>>> +      * If THP is explicitly disabled for either the vma, the =
process or the
>>>>>>>>> +      * system, then this is very likely intended to limit int=
ernal
>>>>>>>>> +      * fragmentation; in this case, don't attempt to allocate=
 a large
>>>>>>>>> +      * anonymous folio.
>>>>>>>>> +      *
>>>>>>>>> +      * Else, if the vma is eligible for thp, allocate a large=
 folio of the
>>>>>>>>> +      * size preferred by the arch. Or if the arch requested a=
 very small
>>>>>>>>> +      * size or didn't request a size, then use PAGE_ALLOC_COS=
TLY_ORDER,
>>>>>>>>> +      * which still meets the arch's requirements but means we=
 still take
>>>>>>>>> +      * advantage of SW optimizations (e.g. fewer page faults)=
=2E
>>>>>>>>> +      *
>>>>>>>>> +      * Finally if thp is enabled but the vma isn't eligible, =
take the
>>>>>>>>> +      * arch-preferred size and limit it to ANON_FOLIO_MAX_ORD=
ER_UNHINTED.
>>>>>>>>> +      * This ensures workloads that have not explicitly opted-=
in take benefit
>>>>>>>>> +      * while capping the potential for internal fragmentation=
=2E
>>>>>>>>> +      */
>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>> +     if ((vma->vm_flags & VM_NOHUGEPAGE) ||
>>>>>>>>> +         test_bit(MMF_DISABLE_THP, &vma->vm_mm->flags) ||
>>>>>>>>> +         !hugepage_flags_enabled())
>>>>>>>>> +             order =3D 0;
>>>>>>>>> +     else {
>>>>>>>>> +             order =3D max(arch_wants_pte_order(), PAGE_ALLOC_=
COSTLY_ORDER);
>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>> +             if (!hugepage_vma_check(vma, vma->vm_flags, false=
, true, true))
>>>>>>>>> +                     order =3D min(order, ANON_FOLIO_MAX_ORDER=
_UNHINTED);
>>>>>>>>> +     }
>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>> +     return order;
>>>>>>>>> +}
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm writing up the conclusions that we arrived at during discuss=
ion in the THP
>>>>>>>> meeting yesterday, regarding linkage with exiting THP ABIs. It w=
ould be great if
>>>>>>>> I can get explicit "agree" or disagree + rationale from at least=
 David, Yu and
>>>>>>>> Kirill.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In summary; I think we are converging on the approach that is al=
ready coded, but
>>>>>>>> I'd like confirmation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The THP situation today
>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     - At system level: THP can be set to "never", "madvise" or "=
always"
>>>>>>>>     - At process level: THP can be "never" or "defer to system s=
etting"
>>>>>>>>     - At VMA level: no-hint, MADV_HUGEPAGE, MADV_NOHUGEPAGE
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That gives us this table to describe how a page fault is handled=
, according to
>>>>>>>> process state (columns) and vma flags (rows):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                    | never     | madvise   | always
>>>>>>>> ----------------|-----------|-----------|-----------
>>>>>>>> no hint         | S         | S         | THP>S
>>>>>>>> MADV_HUGEPAGE   | S         | THP>S     | THP>S
>>>>>>>> MADV_NOHUGEPAGE | S         | S         | S
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Legend:
>>>>>>>> S       allocate single page (PTE-mapped)
>>>>>>>> LAF     allocate lage anon folio (PTE-mapped)
>>>>>>>> THP     allocate THP-sized folio (PMD-mapped)
>>>>>>>>>          fallback (usually because vma size/alignment insuffici=
ent for folio)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Principles for Large Anon Folios (LAF)
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David tells us there are use cases today (e.g. qemu live migrati=
on) which use
>>>>>>>> MADV_NOHUGEPAGE to mean "don't fill any PTEs that are not explic=
itly faulted"
>>>>>>>> and these use cases will break (i.e. functionally incorrect) if =
this request is
>>>>>>>> not honoured.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't remember David saying this. I think he was referring to U=
FFD,
>>>>>>> not MADV_NOHUGEPAGE, when discussing what we need to absolutely
>>>>>>> respect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding was that MADV_NOHUGEPAGE was being applied to reg=
ions *before*
>>>>>> UFFD was being registered, and the app relied on MADV_NOHUGEPAGE t=
o not back any
>>>>>> unfaulted pages. It's not completely clear to me how not honouring=

>>>>>> MADV_NOHUGEPAGE would break things though. David?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I'm still lagging behind on some threads.
>>>>>
>>>>> Imagine the following for VM postcopy live migration:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Set MADV_NOHUGEPAGE on guest memory and discard all memory (e.g=
=2E,
>>>>>        MADV_DONTNEED), to start with a clean slate.
>>>>> (2) Migrates some pages during precopy from the source and stores t=
hem
>>>>>        into guest memory on the destination. Some of the memory loc=
ations
>>>>>        will have pages populated.
>>>>> (3) At some point, decide to enable postcopy: enable userfaultfd on=

>>>>>        guest memory.
>>>>> (4) Discard *selected* pages again that have been dirtied in the
>>>>>        meantime on the source. These are pages that have been migra=
ted
>>>>>        previously.
>>>>> (5) Start running the VM on the destination.
>>>>> (6) Anything that's not populated will trigger userfaultfd missing
>>>>>        faults. Then, you can request them from the source and place=
 them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Assume you would populate more than required during 2), you can end=
 up
>>>>> not getting userfaultfd faults during 4) and corrupt your guest sta=
te.
>>>>> It works if during (2) you migrated all guest memory, or if during =
4)
>>>>> you zap everything that still needs migr
>>>>
>>>> I see what you mean now. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, in this case we have to interpret MADV_NOHUGEPAGE as nothing >4=
KB.
>>>
>>> Note that it's still even unclear to me why we want to *not* call the=
se
>>> things THP. It would certainly make everything less confusing if we c=
all
>>> them THP, but with additional attributes.
>>>
>>> I think that is one of the first things we should figure out because =
it
>>> also indirectly tells us what all these toggles mean and how/if we
>>> should redefine them (and if they even apply).
>>>
>>> Currently THP =3D=3D PMD size
>>>
>>> In 2016, Hugh already envisioned PUD/PGD THP (see 49920d28781d ("mm:
>>> make transparent hugepage size public")) when he explicitly exposed
>>> "hpage_pmd_size". Not "hpage_size".
>>>
>>> For hugetlb on arm64 we already support various sizes that are < PMD
>>> size and *not* call them differently. It's a huge(tlb) page. Sometime=
s
>>> we refer to them as cont-PTE hugetlb pages.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, nowadays we do have "PMD-sized THP", someday we might have
>>> "PUD-sized THP". Can't we come up with a name to describe sub-PMD THP=
?
>>>
>>> Is it really of value if we invent a new term for them? Yes, I was no=
t
>>> enjoying "Flexible THP".
>>>
>>>
>>> Once we figured that out, we should figure out if MADV_HUGEPAGE meant=

>>> "only PMD-sized THP" or anything else?
>>>
>>> Also, we can then figure out if MADV_NOHUGEPAGE meant "only PMD-sized=

>>> THP" or anything else?
>>>
>>>
>>> The simplest approach to me would be "they imply any THP, and once we=

>>> need more tunables we might add some", similar to what Kirill also ra=
ised.
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, it's all unclear to me at this point and I'm happy to hear
>>> opinions, because I really don't know.
>>
>> I agree these points require more discussion. But I don't think we
>> need to conclude them now, unless they cause correctness issues like
>> ignoring MADV_NOHUGEPAGE would. My concern is that if we decide to go
>> with "they imply any THP" and *expose this to userspace now*, we might=

>> regret later.
>
> If we don't think they are THP, probably MADV_NOHUGEPAGE should not app=
ly and we should be ready to find other ways to deal with the mess we eve=
ntually create. If we want to go down that path, sure.
>
> If they are THP, to me there is not really a question if MADV_NOHUGEPAG=
E applies to them or not. Unless we want to build a confusing piece of so=
ftware ;)

I think it is good to call them THP, since they are transparent huge (>or=
der-0) pages.
But the concern is that before we have a reasonable management policy for=
 order>0 &&
order<9 THPs, mixing them with existing order-9 THP might give user unexp=
ected
performance outcome. Unless we are sure they will always performance impr=
ovement,
we might repeat the old THP path, namely users begin to disable THP by de=
fault
to avoid unexpected performance hiccup. That is the reason Yu wants to se=
parate
LAF from THP at the moment.

Maybe call it THP (experimental) for now and merge it to THP when we have=
 a stable
policy. For knobs, we might add "any-order" to the existing "never", "mad=
vise"
and another interface to specify max hinted order (enforcing <9) for "any=
-order".
Later, we can allow users to specify any max hinted order, including 9. J=
ust an
idea.


--
Best Regards,
Yan, Zi

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