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Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/4] keys: Introduce a keys frontend for attestation
 reports
From:   James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>
To:     Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>, dhowells@redhat.com
Cc:     Brijesh Singh <brijesh.singh@amd.com>,
        Kuppuswamy Sathyanarayanan 
        <sathyanarayanan.kuppuswamy@linux.intel.com>,
        Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
        Tom Lendacky <thomas.lendacky@amd.com>,
        Dionna Amalie Glaze <dionnaglaze@google.com>,
        Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de>,
        Jarkko Sakkinen <jarkko@kernel.org>,
        Samuel Ortiz <sameo@rivosinc.com>,
        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
        linux-coco@lists.linux.dev, keyrings@vger.kernel.org,
        x86@kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Date:   Tue, 08 Aug 2023 10:19:22 -0400
In-Reply-To: <64d17f5728fbc_5ea6e2943f@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch>
References: <169057265210.180586.7950140104251236598.stgit@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com>
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         <c6576d1682b576ba47556478a98f397ed518a177.camel@HansenPartnership.com>
         <64cdb5f25c56_2138e294f1@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch>
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On Mon, 2023-08-07 at 16:33 -0700, Dan Williams wrote:
> James Bottomley wrote:
> > On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 19:37 -0700, Dan Williams wrote:
> > > James Bottomley wrote:
> > > [..]
> > > > > This report interface on the other hand just needs a single
> > > > > ABI to retrieve all these vendor formats (until industry
> > > > > standardization steps in) and it needs to be flexible (within
> > > > > reason) for all the TSM-specific options to be conveyed. I do
> > > > > not trust my ioctl ABI minefield avoidance skills to get that
> > > > > right. Key blob instantiation feels up to the task.
> > > > 
> > > > To repeat: there's nothing keylike about it.
> > > 
> > > From that perspective there's nothing keylike about user-keys
> > > either.
> > 
> > Whataboutism may be popular in politics at the moment, but it
> > shouldn't be a justification for API abuse: Just because you might
> > be able to argue something else is an abuse of an API doesn't give
> > you the right to abuse it further.
> 
> That appears to be the disagreement, that the "user" key type is an
> abuse of the keyctl subsystem. Is that the general consensus that it
> was added as a mistake that is not be repeated?

I didn't say anything about your assertion, just that you seemed to be
trying to argue it.  However, if you look at the properties of keys:

https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v5.0/security/keys/core.html

You'll see that none of them really applies to the case you're trying
to add.

> Otherwise there is significant amount of thought that has gone into
> keyctl including quotas, permissions, and instantiation flows.
> 
> 
> > > Those are just blobs that userspace gets to define how they are
> > > used and the keyring is just a transport. I also think that this
> > > interface *is* key-like in that it is used in the flow of
> > > requesting other key material. The ability to set policy on who
> > > can request and instantiate these pre-requisite reports can be
> > > controlled by request-key policy.
> > 
> > I thought we agreed back here:
> > 
> > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-coco/64c5ed6eb4ca1_a88b2942a@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch/
> > 
> > That it ended up as "just a transport interface".  Has something
> > changed that?
> 
> This feedback cast doubt on the assumption that attestation reports
> are infrequently generated:
> 
> http://lore.kernel.org/r/CAAH4kHbsFbzL=0gn71qq1-1kL398jiS2rd3as1qUFnLTCB5mHQ@mail.gmail.com

Well, I just read attestation would be called more than once at boot. 
That doesn't necessarily require a concurrent interface.

> Now, the kernel is within its rights to weigh in on that question
> with an ABI that is awkward for that use case, or it can decide up
> front that sysfs is not built for transactions.

I thought pretty much everyone agreed sysfs isn't really transactional.
However, if the frequency of use of this is low enough, CC attestation
doesn't need to be transactional either.  All you need is the ability
to look at the inputs and outputs and to specify new ones if required.
Sysfs works for this provided two entities don't want to supply inputs
at the same time.

> > [...]
> > > > Sneaking it in as a one-off is the wrong way to proceed
> > > > on something like this.
> > > 
> > > Where is the sneaking in cc'ing all the relevant maintainers of
> > > the keyring subsystem and their mailing list? Yes, please add
> > > others to the cc. 
> > 
> > I was thinking more using the term pubkey in the text about
> > something that is more like a nonce:
> > 
> > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-coco/169057265801.180586.10867293237672839356.stgit@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com/
> > 
> > That looked to me designed to convince the casual observer that
> > keys were involved.
> 
> Ok, I see where you were going, at the same time I was trusting
> keyrings@ community to ask about that detail and was unaware of any
> advocacy against new key types.

I'm not advocating against new key types.  I'm saying what you're
proposing is simply a data transport layer and, as such, has no
properties that really make it a key type.

> > > The question for me at this point is whether a new:
> > > 
> > >         /dev/tsmX
> > > 
> > > ...ABI is worth inventing, or if a key-type is sufficient. To
> > > Peter's concern, this key-type imposes no restrictions over what
> > > sevguest already allows. New options are easy to add to the key
> > > instantiation interface and I expect different vendors are likely
> > > to develop workalike functionality to keep option proliferation
> > > to a minimum. Unlike ioctl() there does not need to be as careful
> > > planning about the binary format of the input payload for per
> > > vendor options. Just add more tokens to the instantiation
> > > command-line.
> > 
> > I still think this is pretty much an arbitrary transport interface.
> > The question of how frequently it is used and how transactional it
> > has to be depend on the use cases (which I think would bear further
> > examination).  What you mostly want to do is create a transaction
> > by adding parameters individually, kick it off and then read a set
> > of results back.  Because the format of the inputs and outputs is
> > highly specific to the architecture, the kernel shouldn't really be
> > doing any inspection or modification.  For low volume single
> > threaded use, this can easily be done by sysfs.  For high volume
> > multi-threaded use, something like configfs or a generic keyctl
> > like object transport interface would be more appropriate. 
> > However, if you think the latter, it should still be proposed as a
> > new generic kernel to userspace transactional transport mechanism.
> 
> Perhaps we can get more detail about the proposed high-volume use
> case: Dionna, Peter?

Well, that's why I asked for use cases.  I have one which is very low
volume and single threaded.  I'm not sure what use case you have since
you never outlined it and I see hints from Red Hat that they worry
about concurrency.  So it's interface design 101: collect the use cases
first.

> I think the minimum bar for ABI success here is that options are not
> added without touching a common file that everyone can agree what the
> option is, no more drivers/virt/coco/$vendor ABI isolation. If
> concepts like VMPL and RTMR are going to have cross-vendor workalike
> functionality one day then the kernel community picks one name for
> shared concepts. The other criteria for success is that the frontend
> needs no change when standardization arrives, assuming all vendors
> get their optionality into that spec definition.

I don't think RTMR would ever be cross vendor.  It's sort of a cut down
TPM with a limited number of PCRs.  Even Intel seems to be admitting
this when they justified putting a vTPM into TDX at the OC3 Q and A
session (no tools currently work with RTMRs and the TPM ecosystem is
fairly solid, so using a vTPM instead of RTMRs gives us an industry
standard workflow).

James


> keyring lessened my workload with how it can accept ascii token
> options whereas ioctl() needs more upfront thought.