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Date:   Fri, 13 Oct 2023 13:05:55 -0400
From:   Peter Xu <peterx@redhat.com>
To:     Lokesh Gidra <lokeshgidra@google.com>
Cc:     David Hildenbrand <david@redhat.com>,
        Suren Baghdasaryan <surenb@google.com>,
        akpm@linux-foundation.org, viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk,
        brauner@kernel.org, shuah@kernel.org, aarcange@redhat.com,
        hughd@google.com, mhocko@suse.com, axelrasmussen@google.com,
        rppt@kernel.org, willy@infradead.org, Liam.Howlett@oracle.com,
        jannh@google.com, zhangpeng362@huawei.com, bgeffon@google.com,
        kaleshsingh@google.com, ngeoffray@google.com, jdduke@google.com,
        linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org,
        linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kselftest@vger.kernel.org,
        kernel-team@android.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 2/3] userfaultfd: UFFDIO_MOVE uABI
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On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 09:49:10AM -0700, Lokesh Gidra wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 9:08 AM Peter Xu <peterx@redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 11:56:31AM +0200, David Hildenbrand wrote:
> > > Hi Peter,
> >
> > Hi, David,
> >
> > >
> > > > I used to have the same thought with David on whether we can simplify the
> > > > design to e.g. limit it to single mm.  Then I found that the trickiest is
> > > > actually patch 1 together with the anon_vma manipulations, and the problem
> > > > is that's not avoidable even if we restrict the api to apply on single mm.
> > > >
> > > > What else we can benefit from single mm?  One less mmap read lock, but
> > > > probably that's all we can get; IIUC we need to keep most of the rest of
> > > > the code, e.g. pgtable walks, double pgtable lockings, etc.
> > >
> > > No existing mechanisms move anon pages between unrelated processes, that
> > > naturally makes me nervous if we're doing it "just because we can".
> >
> > IMHO that's also the potential, when guarded with userfaultfd descriptor
> > being shared between two processes.
> >
> > See below with more comment on the raised concerns.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Actually, even though I have no solid clue, but I had a feeling that there
> > > > can be some interesting way to leverage this across-mm movement, while
> > > > keeping things all safe (by e.g. elaborately requiring other proc to create
> > > > uffd and deliver to this proc).
> > >
> > > Okay, but no real use cases yet.
> >
> > I can provide a "not solid" example.  I didn't mention it because it's
> > really something that just popped into my mind when thinking cross-mm, so I
> > never discussed with anyone yet nor shared it anywhere.
> >
> > Consider VM live upgrade in a generic form (e.g., no VFIO), we can do that
> > very efficiently with shmem or hugetlbfs, but not yet anonymous.  We can do
> > extremely efficient postcopy live upgrade now with anonymous if with REMAP.
> >
> > Basically I see it a potential way of moving memory efficiently especially
> > with thp.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Considering Andrea's original version already contains those bits and all
> > > > above, I'd vote that we go ahead with supporting two MMs.
> > >
> > > You can do nasty things with that, as it stands, on the upstream codebase.
> > >
> > > If you pin the page in src_mm and move it to dst_mm, you successfully broke
> > > an invariant that "exclusive" means "no other references from other
> > > processes". That page is marked exclusive but it is, in fact, not exclusive.
> >
> > It is still exclusive to the dst mm?  I see your point, but I think you're
> > taking exclusiveness altogether with pinning, and IMHO that may not be
> > always necessary?
> >
> > >
> > > Once you achieved that, you can easily have src_mm not have MMF_HAS_PINNED,
> >
> > (I suppose you meant dst_mm here)
> >
> > > so you can just COW-share that page. Now you successfully broke the
> > > invariant that COW-shared pages must not be pinned. And you can even trigger
> > > VM_BUG_ONs, like in sanity_check_pinned_pages().
> >
> > Yeah, that's really unfortunate.  But frankly, I don't think it's the fault
> > of this new feature, but the rest.
> >
> > Let's imagine if the MMF_HAS_PINNED wasn't proposed as a per-mm flag, but
> > per-vma, which I don't see why we can't because it's simply a hint so far.
> > Then if we apply the same rule here, UFFDIO_REMAP won't even work for
> > single-mm as long as cross-vma. Then UFFDIO_REMAP as a whole feature will
> > be NACKed simply because of this..
> >
> > And I don't think anyone can guarantee a per-vma MMF_HAS_PINNED can never
> > happen, or any further change to pinning solution that may affect this.  So
> > far it just looks unsafe to remap a pin page to me.
> >
> > I don't have a good suggestion here if this is a risk.. I'd think it risky
> > then to do REMAP over pinned pages no matter cross-mm or single-mm.  It
> > means probably we just rule them out: folio_maybe_dma_pinned() may not even
> > be enough to be safe with fast-gup.  We may need page_needs_cow_for_dma()
> > with proper write_protect_seq no matter cross-mm or single-mm?
> >
> > >
> > > Can it all be fixed? Sure, with more complexity. For something without clear
> > > motivation, I'll have to pass.
> >
> > I think what you raised is a valid concern, but IMHO it's better fixed no
> > matter cross-mm or single-mm.  What do you think?
> >
> > In general, pinning lose its whole point here to me for an userspace either
> > if it DONTNEEDs it or REMAP it.  What would be great to do here is we unpin
> > it upon DONTNEED/REMAP/whatever drops the page, because it loses its
> > coherency anyway, IMHO.
> >
> > >
> > > Once there is real demand, we can revisit it and explore what else we would
> > > have to take care of (I don't know how memcg behaves when moving between
> > > completely unrelated processes, maybe that works as expected, I don't know
> > > and I have no time to spare on reviewing features with no real use cases)
> > > and announce it as a new feature.
> >
> > Good point.  memcg is probably needed..
> >
> > So you reminded me to do a more thorough review against zap/fault paths, I
> > think what's missing are (besides page pinning):
> >
> >   - mem_cgroup_charge()/mem_cgroup_uncharge():
> >
> >     (side note: I think folio_throttle_swaprate() is only for when
> >      allocating new pages, so not needed here)
> >
> >   - check_stable_address_space() (under pgtable lock)
> >
> >   - tlb flush
> >
> >     Hmm???????????????? I can't see anywhere we did tlb flush, batched or
> >     not, either single-mm or cross-mm should need it.  Is this missing?
> >
> IIUC, ptep_clear_flush() flushes tlb entry. So I think we are doing
> unbatched flushing. Possibly a nice performance improvement later on
> would be to try doing it batched. Suren can throw more light on it.

Oh yeah.. thanks.

> 
> One thing I was wondering is don't we need cache flush for the src
> pages? mremap's move_page_tables() does it. IMHO, it's required here
> as well.

I commented in my reply, I also think it's needed.  Otherwise for some
arches I think we can have page containing stall data if not fully flushed
before the movement.  x86 is probably fine, though.

> 
> > >
> > >
> > > Note: that (with only reading the documentation) it also kept me wondering
> > > how the MMs are even implied from
> > >
> > >        struct uffdio_move {
> > >            __u64 dst;    /* Destination of move */
> > >            __u64 src;    /* Source of move */
> > >            __u64 len;    /* Number of bytes to move */
> > >            __u64 mode;   /* Flags controlling behavior of move */
> > >            __s64 move;   /* Number of bytes moved, or negated error */
> > >        };
> > >
> > > That probably has to be documented as well, in which address space dst and
> > > src reside.
> >
> > Agreed, some better documentation will never hurt.  Dst should be in the mm
> > address space that was bound to the userfault descriptor.  Src should be in
> > the current mm address space.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Peter Xu
> >
> 

-- 
Peter Xu