Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:32:36 +0100
From: Adrian Bunk <bunk@kernel.org>
To: "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@sisk.pl>
Cc: Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz <bzolnier@gmail.com>, linux-ide@vger.kernel.org,
       linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
       Natalie Protasevich <protasnb@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: kernel bugzilla is FPOS (was: Re: "buggy cmd640" message
	followed by soft lockup)
Message-ID: <20071125203236.GA18284@stusta.de>
References: <200711222007.12497.elendil@planet.nl> <200711251411.16034.rjw@sisk.pl> <20071125134945.GB14171@stusta.de> <200711252107.23926.rjw@sisk.pl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <200711252107.23926.rjw@sisk.pl>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01)
Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
Content-Length: 4794
Lines: 114

On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 09:07:23PM +0100, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
> On Sunday, 25 of November 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 02:11:15PM +0100, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 25 of November 2007, Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz wrote:
> > >...
> > > > On Saturday 24 November 2007, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, 24 of November 2007, Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz wrote:
> > >...
>...
> > > > * After each major kernel release bugzilla should send a kind request for
> > > >   retesting to all open bugs.
> > > 
> > > Good idea, IMO.
> > 
> > Good idea ... for pissing off bug submitters.
> > 
> > We have many bug reports in the Bugzilla with very responsive submitters 
> > who wrote very good bug reports but have the bad luck that it's in an 
> > area without a maintainer looking after the bug.
> 
> These are two different issues.
> 
> On the one hand, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging bug reporters to
> test new kernels, especially if the reported problems depend on hardware, as it
> is possible that the bug will get fixed as a result of a loosely related change
> (like a fix for another bug etc.).  [Still, in such cases it would be good to
> identify the change that fixes the problem anyway.]

It's not that much a different issue:

If there was for each bug a maintainer looking soon after it, we should 
not have many bugs open for a longer time.

> OTOH, the situations in which good bug reports are not responded to are not
> acceptable.  There should be a way to make developers take care of _their_
> code, because by not doing so they hurt us all, big time.

There are two different cases:
- no maintainer at all
- maintainer is too busy with other stuff for looking at bug reports

But both cases boil down to the point of how to find maintainers...

>...
> > > > * We want bug tracking the other way around: everything goes through mailing
> > > >   list first (including bugs filled to the bug tracker) and if not fixed
> > > >   quickly, somebody (maintainer of the given part of code or a higher level
> > > >   maintainer) replies cc:ing bugzilla so the new bug entry is added.
> > > > 
> > > >   Also this way we fix trivial/easy/medium bugs ASAP or reject invalid ones
> > > >   without any bugzilla overhead.  We also add a new patch description tags:
> > > >   - "Fixes-bug:" tag with reference to the original discussion
> > > 
> > > Alternatively, we can give a Bugzilla link here pointing to the entry which
> > > contains a pointer to the original discussion.  [This may be more convenient,
> > > since some bugs are reported multiple times and tracked separately to the point
> > > in which it turns out that they really are the same.]
> > 
> > 
> > It would be best if bugs would initially be entered in Bugzilla.
> 
> The Bugzilla has a considerable "barrier to entry" for new bug reporters, as
> it pretends to require them to spend quite a lot of time on the bug report.

First of all, Bugzilla is a quite often used bug tracker in the open 
source world [1], so many users already know it.

But more important, "it pretends to require them to spend" isn't true 
because there's no pretending - we actually often require bug reporters 
to spend a lot of time on the bug report (e.g. when asking for 
bisecting).

I'm also sometimes writing bug reports in different areas, and in my 
experience it doesn't matter whether it's web-based Bugzilla, the 
email-based Debian bug tracker or whatever else system - the time spent 
on a good bug report is not spend on pasting the text whereever or on 
clicking on a few boxes, the time is spent on tracking the issue down 
and writing a good bug report.

What matters for a bug reporter is to get a solution for his problem 
within a reasonable amount of time.

> Also, some developers do not consider the Bugzilla as a useful thing and
> wouldn't like to use it (which is why this thread has appeared, among other
> things ;-)).
>...

And that's part of the problem.

Bugzilla is a usable tool, but it isn't the only tool available.

If there was one tool all developers would be willing to use that would 
be a reason why we should switch to whatever tool this is.

> Greetings,
> Rafael

cu
Adrian

[1] my Seamonkey knows my passwords for more than a dozen Bugzillas

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/