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[82.0.78.162]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r8-20020adfb1c8000000b0033e206a0a7asm14639052wra.26.2024.04.02.09.32.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Apr 2024 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Edward Cree Subject: Re: [PATCH V4 0/5] mlx5 ConnectX control misc driver To: David Ahern , Jakub Kicinski Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman , Jason Gunthorpe , Christoph Hellwig , Saeed Mahameed , Arnd Bergmann , Leon Romanovsky , Jiri Pirko , Leonid Bloch , Itay Avraham , Saeed Mahameed , Aron Silverton , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, "netdev@vger.kernel.org" , Andy Gospodarek References: <20240207072435.14182-1-saeed@kernel.org> <20240214175735.GG1088888@nvidia.com> <20240304160237.GA2909161@nvidia.com> <9cc7127f-8674-43bc-b4d7-b1c4c2d96fed@kernel.org> <2024032248-ardently-ribcage-a495@gregkh> <510c1b6b-1738-4baa-bdba-54d478633598@kernel.org> <20240322135826.1c4655e2@kernel.org> <20240322154027.5555780a@kernel.org> <1cd2a70c-17b8-4421-b70b-3c0199a84a6a@kernel.org> Message-ID: <0ea32dd4-f408-5870-77eb-f18899f1ad44@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 17:32:44 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1cd2a70c-17b8-4421-b70b-3c0199a84a6a@kernel.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 26/03/2024 14:57, David Ahern wrote: > The proposal is an attempt at a common interface and common tooling to a > degree but independent of any specific subsystem of which many are > supported by the device. [ Let me prefix this by noting that I'm speaking personally here, and not representing the position of my employer. ] You can't have a "common interface" and yet be "independent" of anything that could give semantics to that interface. What you have is a common *transport*, used to connect to a *vendor* interface. If you can't even bring yourself to be honest about that, it's no wonder you're getting maintainer pushback. Do we need to go all the way back to operating systems 101 and point out that one of the fundamental jobs of a kernel is to *abstract* the hardware, and provide *services* to userspace rather than mere devices? Frankly, this whole thread reads to me like certain vendors whining that they weren't expecting to have to get their new features *reviewed* by upstream — possibly they thought devlink params would just get rubber- stamped — and now they're finding that the kernel's quality standards still apply. Complaining that devlink params "don't scale" is disingenuous. Patches aren't languishing for want of reviewer resources; it's just that it takes *submitter* time and effort to bring them up to the quality level that's required, and occasionally the vendor has to (shock! horror!) tell the world what one of their magic knobs actually *does*. If all the configuration of these Complex Devices™ goes through fwctl backdoors, where exactly is anyone going to discover the commonalities to underlie the generic interfaces of the next generation? What would configuring plain vanilla netdevs be like today if, instead of a set of well-defined cross-vendor APIs, ethtool (say) had been a mechanism to write arbitrary values to hardware registers on the NIC? These commonalities are key to allowing a product category to mature. I realise vendors in many cases don't want that to happen, because mature products are largely commoditised and thus don't command huge margins; but Linux isn't here to serve vendors' interests at the expense of users. On 23/03/2024 01:27, Saeed Mahameed wrote: > It is obvious to everyone that in the AI era, everyone needs > customization It's always possible to argue that the New Thing is qualitatively different from anything that went before, that these "multibillion gate devices" need to be able to break the rules. But the truth is, you aren't that special. -e