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Fri, 5 Apr 2024 10:06:06 +0000 Received: from DM6PR10MB4313.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ae68:7d51:133f:324]) by DM6PR10MB4313.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ae68:7d51:133f:324%4]) with mapi id 15.20.7409.042; Fri, 5 Apr 2024 10:06:06 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 11:06:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v6 00/10] block atomic writes To: Matthew Wilcox Cc: axboe@kernel.dk, kbusch@kernel.org, hch@lst.de, sagi@grimberg.me, jejb@linux.ibm.com, martin.petersen@oracle.com, djwong@kernel.org, viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk, brauner@kernel.org, dchinner@redhat.com, jack@suse.cz, linux-block@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, tytso@mit.edu, jbongio@google.com, linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org, ojaswin@linux.ibm.com, linux-aio@kvack.org, linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org, io-uring@vger.kernel.org, nilay@linux.ibm.com, ritesh.list@gmail.com References: <20240326133813.3224593-1-john.g.garry@oracle.com> Content-Language: en-US From: John Garry Organization: Oracle Corporation In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; 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I've talked to a few database people >>> and all they want is to increase the untorn write boundary from "one >>> disc block" to one database block, typically 8kB or 16kB. >>> >>> So they would be quite happy with a much simpler interface where they >>> set the inode block size at inode creation time, >> We want to support untorn writes for bdev file operations - how can we set >> the inode block size there? Currently it is based on logical block size. > ioctl(BLKBSZSET), I guess? That currently limits to PAGE_SIZE, but I > think we can remove that limitation with the bs>PS patches. We want a consistent interface for bdev and regular files, so that would need to work for FSes also. FSes(XFS) work based on a homogeneous inode blocksize, which is the SB blocksize. Furthermore, we would seem to be mixing different concepts here. Currently in Linux we say that a logical block size write is atomic. In the block layer, we split BIOs on LBS boundaries. iomap creates BIOs based on LBS boundaries. But writing a FS block is not always guaranteed to be atomic, as far as I'm concerned. So just increasing the inode block size / FS block size does not really change anything, in itself. > >>> and then all writes to >>> that inode were guaranteed to be untorn. This would also be simpler to >>> implement for buffered writes. >> We did consider that. Won't that lead to the possibility of breaking >> existing applications which want to do regular unaligned writes to these >> files? We do know that mysql/innodb does have some "compressed" mode of >> operation, which involves regular writes to the same file which wants untorn >> writes. > If you're talking about "regular unaligned buffered writes", then that > won't break. If you cross a folio boundary, the result may be torn, > but if you're crossing a block boundary you expect that. > >> Furthermore, untorn writes in HW are expensive - for SCSI anyway. Do we >> always want these for such a file? > Do untorn writes actually exist in SCSI? I was under the impression > nobody had actually implemented them in SCSI hardware. I know that some SCSI targets actually atomically write data in chunks > LBS. Obviously atomic vs non-atomic performance is a moot point there, as data is implicitly always atomically written. We actually have an mysql/innodb port of this API working on such a SCSI target. However I am not sure about atomic write support for other SCSI targets. > >> We saw untorn writes as not being a property of the file or even the inode >> itself, but rather an attribute of the specific IO being issued from the >> userspace application. > The problem is that keeping track of that is expensive for buffered > writes. It's a model that only works for direct IO. Arguably we > could make it work for O_SYNC buffered IO, but that'll require some > surgery. To me, O_ATOMIC would be required for buffered atomic writes IO, as we want a fixed-sized IO, so that would mean no mixing of atomic and non-atomic IO. Thanks, John