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Message-ID: <7480160e472633ce44f71dbc51db0d74bd2c89b8.camel@infradead.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] KVM: selftests: Compare wall time from xen shinfo
 against KVM_GET_CLOCK
From: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>
To: Sean Christopherson <seanjc@google.com>
Cc: kvm@vger.kernel.org, Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@redhat.com>, Vitaly
 Kuznetsov <vkuznets@redhat.com>, Jan Richter <jarichte@redhat.com>, 
 linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 10:39:08 -0700
In-Reply-To: <ZjEV_6SpS7MEN_Cx@google.com>
References: <20240206151950.31174-1-vkuznets@redhat.com>
	 <171441840173.70995.3768949354008381229.b4-ty@google.com>
	 <38e124dcdbf5e0badedf3c0e52c72e5e9352c435.camel@infradead.org>
	 <ZjEV_6SpS7MEN_Cx@google.com>
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On Tue, 2024-04-30 at 09:02 -0700, Sean Christopherson wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2024, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-04-29 at 13:45 -0700, Sean Christopherson wrote:
> > > On Tue, 06 Feb 2024 16:19:50 +0100, Vitaly Kuznetsov wrote:
> > > > xen_shinfo_test is observed to be flaky failing sporadically with
> > > > "VM time too old". With min_ts/max_ts debug print added:
> > > >=20
> > > > Wall clock (v 3269818) 1704906491.986255664
> > > > Time info 1: v 1282712 tsc 33530585736 time 14014430025 mul 3587552=
223 shift 4294967295 flags 1
> > > > Time info 2: v 1282712 tsc 33530585736 time 14014430025 mul 3587552=
223 shift 4294967295 flags 1
> > > > min_ts: 1704906491.986312153
> > > > max_ts: 1704906506.001006963
> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D Test Assertion Failure =3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 x86_64/xen_shinfo_test.c:1003: cmp_timespec(&min_ts, &=
vm_ts) <=3D 0
> > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 pid=3D32724 tid=3D32724 errno=3D4 - Interrupted system=
 call
> > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 0x00000000004030ad: main at xen_shinfo_test.c:1003
> > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 0x00007fca6b23feaf: ?? ??:0
> > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 0x00007fca6b23ff5f: ?? ??:0
> > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 0x0000000000405e04: _start at ??:?
> > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 VM time too old
> > > >=20
> > > > [...]
> > >=20
> > > Applied to kvm-x86 selftests, thanks!
> > >=20
> > > [1/1] KVM: selftests: Compare wall time from xen shinfo against KVM_G=
ET_CLOCK
> > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://github.com/kvm-x86/linux/commi=
t/201142d16010
> >=20
> > Of course, this just highlights the fact that the very *definition* of
> > the wallclock time as exposed in the Xen shinfo and MSR_KVM_WALL_CLOCK
> > is entirely broken now.=20
> >=20
> > When the KVM clock was based on CLOCK_MONOTONIC, the delta between that
> > and wallclock time was constant (well, apart from leap seconds but KVM
> > has *always* been utterly hosed for that, so that's just par for the
> > course). So that made sense.
> >=20
> > But when we switched the KVM clock to CLOCK_MONOTONIC_RAW, trying to
> > express wallclock time in terms of the KVM clock became silly. They run
> > at different rates, so the value returned by kvm_get_wall_clock_epoch()
> > will be constantly changing.
> >=20
> > As I work through cleaning up the KVM clock mess, it occurred to me
> > that we should maybe *refresh* the wallclock time we report to the
> > guest. But I think it's just been hosed for so long that no guest could
> > ever trust it for anything but knowing roughly what year it is when
> > first booting, and it isn't worth fixing.
> >=20
> > What we *should* do is expose something new which exposes the NTP-
> > calibrated relationship between the arch counter (or TSC) and the real
> > time, being explicit about TAI and about live migration (a guest needs
> > to know when it's been migrated and should throw away any NTP
> > refinement that it's done for *itself*).
> >=20
> > I know we have the PTP paired reading thing, but that's *still* not
> > TAI, it makes guests do the work for themselves and doesn't give a
> > clean signal when live migration disrupts them.
>=20
> Is the above an objection to the selftest change, or just an aside?=C2=A0=
 Honest
> question, I have no preference either way; I just don't have my head wrap=
ped
> around all of the clock stuff enough to have an informed opinion on what =
the
> right/best way forward is.

Sorry for not being clearer. The selftest change is fine; this is an
aside (well, more of a corollary).

Put differently: The selftest commit is entirely correct. We can't rely
on the accuracy of the wallclock time that KVM advertises to the guest
because it's fundamentally hosed. All the selftest can do is check that
we put something *plausible* there.=20

The corollary is that we do need a *proper* way of conveying the
wallclock time to guests now that the old one is useless. And the PTP
clock pairing ioctl isn't sufficient either.

My previous email launched straight into the latter without taking the
time to say "yes, that commit is entirely right but also serves to
highlight the fact that..."


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