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Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 20:31:35 -0400
From: Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu>
To: Hernan Ponce de Leon <hernan.poncedeleon@huaweicloud.com>
Cc: Jonas Oberhauser <jonas.oberhauser@huaweicloud.com>,
  "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
  linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, kernel-team@meta.com, parri.andrea@gmail.com,
  boqun.feng@gmail.com, j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk, luc.maranget@inria.fr,
  Joel Fernandes <joel@joelfernandes.org>
Subject: Re: LKMM: Making RMW barriers explicit
Message-ID: <2f20e7cf-7c67-4ad3-8a0c-3c1d01257ae4@rowland.harvard.edu>
References: <72c804c8-2511-4349-a823-bc1de8bb729e@rowland.harvard.edu>
 <e030f7a4-97e7-4e91-bbae-230ee5c97763@huaweicloud.com>
 <a9bf972c-b5ee-f1c2-36bf-30ba62f419d7@huaweicloud.com>
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On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 10:44:05AM +0200, Hernan Ponce de Leon wrote:
> On 5/16/2024 10:31 AM, Jonas Oberhauser wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Am 5/16/2024 um 3:43 AM schrieb Alan Stern:
> > > Hernan and Jonas:
> > > 
> > > Can you explain more fully the changes you want to make to herd7 and/or
> > > the LKMM?? The goal is to make the memory barriers currently implicit in
> > > RMW operations explicit, but I couldn't understand how you propose to do
> > > this.
> > > 
> > > Are you going to change herd7 somehow, and if so, how?? It seems like
> > > you should want to provide sufficient information so that the .bell
> > > and .cat files can implement the appropriate memory barriers associated
> > > with each RMW operation.? What additional information is needed?? And
> > > how (explained in English, not by quoting source code) will the .bell
> > > and .cat files make use of this information?
> > > 
> > > Alan
> > 
> > 
> > I don't know whether herd7 needs to be changed. Probably, herd7 does the
> > following:
> > - if a tag called Mb appears on an rmw instruction (by instruction I
> > mean things like xchg(), atomic_inc_return_relaxed()), replace it with
> > one of those things:
> >  ? * full mb ; once (the rmw) ; full mb, if a value returning
> > (successful) rmw
> >  ? * once (the rmw)?? otherwise
> > - everything else gets translated 1:1 into some internal representation
> 
> This is my understanding from reading the source code of CSem.ml in herd7's
> repo.
> 
> Also, this is exactly what dartagnan is currently doing.
> 
> > 
> > What I'm proposing is:
> > 1. remove this transpilation step,
> > 2. and instead allow the Mb tag to actually appear on RMW instructions
> > 3. change the cat file to explicitly define the behavior of the Mb tag
> > on RMW instructions
> 
> These are the exact 3 things I changed in dartagnan for testing what Jonas
> proposed.
> 
> I am not sure if further changes are needed for herd7.

Okay, good.  This answers the first part of what I asked.  What about 
the second part?  That is, how will the changes to the .def, .bell, and 
cat files achieve your goals?

Alan