Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 07:46:21 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 07:46:07 -0500 Received: from chmls20.mediaone.net ([24.147.1.156]:26852 "EHLO chmls20.mediaone.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 07:44:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 07:29:58 -0500 To: Bruce Harada Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Aunt Tillie builds a kernel (was Re: ISA hardware discovery -- the elegant solution) Message-ID: <20020115072958.A7900@pimlott.ne.mediaone.net> Mail-Followup-To: Bruce Harada , esr@thyrsus.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In-Reply-To: <20020114125228.B14747@thyrsus.com> <20020114125508.A3358@twoflower.internal.do> <20020114135412.D17522@thyrsus.com> <20020114223042.ENDG28486.femail48.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there> <20020114173423.A23081@thyrsus.com> <20020115080218.7709cef7.bruce@ask.ne.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020115080218.7709cef7.bruce@ask.ne.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i From: Andrew Pimlott Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 08:02:18AM +0900, Bruce Harada wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:34:23 -0500 > "Eric S. Raymond" wrote: > > > Therefore I try to stay focused on Aunt Tillie even though I know > > that you are objectively correct and her class of user is likely > > not to build kernels regularly for some years yet. > > Change that last line to read "her class of user will never build > kernels ever, and would be aggressively disinterested in the > possibility of doing so", and you might be closer to the truth. > > Aunt Tillie just DOESN'T CARE, OK? She can talk to her vendor if she gets > worried about whether her kernel supports the Flangelistic2000 SuperDoodad. Ok, Grandpa Willie only cares about support for his doodad. Why do you conclude that he should never build a kernel? It's just as easy in principle to write a friendly front-end that downloads sources and compiles them, as one that downloads binaries. The obstacle is reliability, because there are more things that can go wrong. But imagine for a moment that this is overcome. What benefits might accrue from Willie compiling his own kernels (even if he doesn't realize it)? - It's easier for third-parties to provide kernel software in source form than in binary form (because binaries must be in the correct package format, and be compiled with the right config options, and adhere to the particular distribution's conventionts; whereas source is relatively neutral). Why should Willie be limited to getting his kernels from his vendor? What if his vendor doesn't support the Flangelistic2000 SuperDoodad yet, but there's a solid driver available from a volunteer? What if he hears the hype (sorry) about the low latency patch, and decides he wants to try it (maybe his MP3's skip when Netscape thrashes)? Why take the choice out of Willie's hands? And why keep a willing tester and a developer apart? (If you claim that novice users don't want to install random beta software--that contradicts my experience with lots of Windows users!) - It's a system that experts are likely to use as well, because there's a lot of overlap between this system and what experts want. A nice front-end to browse and manage kernel versions, patches, and drivers; to download, configure, compile and install them? I might use that. Such a system helps more people, and thus attracts more developers. It's more likely to become common infrastructure, instead of a distribution-specific one-off. - It makes it easier for Willie's hacker grandson to help him. Hackers know all about compiling kernels, but aren't as likely to be familiar with the distribution's binary packaging. The more we all do things the same way, the more we can help each other; when different groups use different tools, the community is fragmented. - It can support a graceful transition from beginner to expert. Suppose one day, for whatever reason, Willie really does need to change a compile-time option. Or, heaven forbid, he gets curious about what his computer is doing when the status line says "compiling". He's already got all the pieces he needs. Ideally, he just needs to click on that scary "Advanced options" button. - Building from source is good karma. You might think these are trifles and < 1% cases. My intuition tells me that they add up in the long run. At least it's worth considering. Andrew - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/