Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1754342AbYKGLT0 (ORCPT ); Fri, 7 Nov 2008 06:19:26 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1751979AbYKGLTM (ORCPT ); Fri, 7 Nov 2008 06:19:12 -0500 Received: from no-dns-yet.demon.co.uk ([80.176.108.50]:62068 "HELO mailgate.blueteddy.net" rhost-flags-OK-FAIL-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id S1751828AbYKGLTL (ORCPT ); Fri, 7 Nov 2008 06:19:11 -0500 Message-ID: <4914240F.7050701@blueteddy.net> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:18:39 +0000 From: Dave Hudson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ilpo_J=E4rvinen?= CC: Mikael Abrahamsson , David Miller , daniel.blueman@gmail.com, LKML , Netdev , linux-net@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: time for TCP ECN defaulting to on? References: <6278d2220811040632u7a36d68ekad5de517fd0671bb@mail.gmail.com> <20081105.151015.206163697.davem@davemloft.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 2241 Lines: 46 Ilpo J?rvinen wrote: > On Fri, 7 Nov 2008, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > And about somebody earlier claiming that they'll get an impressions that > Linux stack is broken (if such people even know that there's some network > stack in Linux :-))... I'm rather sure those isp supports etc. put a blaim > on us anyway even when loads of counterproof would exists because it's > just cheaper to do nothing and blaim linux instead. Also some claims > asserted by incompetent people easily start to live among random forums; > an example from the previous incident: "since disabling timestamps helps, > it must be that timestamps are broken" (and somebody even "more clueful" > added that they got enabled for 2.6.27?!?), needless to say, neither > holds. Not all of the routers in question (the ones that crash, block packets or otherwise misbehave) are provided by ISPs - in fact a huge number of them are and have been sold retail. Over time most of those boxes will get replaced with ones that don't have the problem because most (probably all major) SOHO router suppliers now test that they don't break with ECN so eventually there will be a point where enabling ECN by default will make a lot of sense (there will be too few broken routers to care about). What I do believe (having spent a lot of years writing embedded device and router code - and no, not the ones that crash ;-)) is that if you enable a feature that causes just 1% of users to have an out-of-the-box problem you'll see a seriously disproportionate response from end users. Most people (and engineers are not "most people" :-)) will blame the new thing that they've just added or changed, not the old thing that was broken to begin with (it's human nature not to truly understand cause and effect). Whether we like it or not there's currently a known problem deploying ECN on a wide scale - it has been sufficient to stop pretty-much everyone from enabling it by default so far. Regards, Dave -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/