Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1756567AbZFKUYR (ORCPT ); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:24:17 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1753583AbZFKUYD (ORCPT ); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:24:03 -0400 Received: from mx3.mail.elte.hu ([157.181.1.138]:37938 "EHLO mx3.mail.elte.hu" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1753072AbZFKUYC (ORCPT ); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:24:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:23:41 +0200 From: Ingo Molnar To: Linus Torvalds Cc: Martin Bligh , Christoph Hellwig , Peter Zijlstra , Al Viro , "David S. Miller" , Stephane Eranian , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Paul Mackerras , Andrew Morton , Thomas Gleixner Subject: Re: [GIT PULL] Performance Counters for Linux Message-ID: <20090611202341.GA23590@elte.hu> References: <20090611160329.GA3366@elte.hu> <20090611161714.GA5008@infradead.org> <20090611165226.GV8633@ZenIV.linux.org.uk> <1244739378.6691.540.camel@laptop> <20090611170015.GA3651@infradead.org> <33307c790906111124m17e57332oc38c89fa70e39231@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-ELTE-SpamScore: -1.5 X-ELTE-SpamLevel: X-ELTE-SpamCheck: no X-ELTE-SpamVersion: ELTE 2.0 X-ELTE-SpamCheck-Details: score=-1.5 required=5.9 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=no SpamAssassin version=3.2.5 -1.5 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Length: 3864 Lines: 103 * Linus Torvalds wrote: [...] > What the "keep it in the kernel sources" approach hopefully allows is > > - taking advantage of new features in a timely manner. > > NOT with some ABI breakage, but simply things like supporting a > new CPU architecture or new counters. The thing that oprofile > failed at so badly in my experience. > > - Make it easier for developers, and _avoiding_ the horrible > situation where you have two different groups that don't talk > well to each other because one is a group of user-space > weenies, and the other is a group of manly kernel people, and > there is no common ground. Yes, very much agreed. Btw., here are a couple of other arguments why i find it useful to have the tools/perf/ in the kernel repo: 1) Super-fast and synchronized release cycles The kernel is one of the fastest moving packages in Linux - most user-space packages have (much!) longer release cycles than 3 months. A tight release schedule forces a certain amount of release discipline on tooling as well - so i'm glad that the two will be coupled. It's so easy for a promising tool to degrade into tinkerware with odd release cycles with time - if it's part of the kernel then at least the release cycles wont be odd but at precise 3 months. 2) Performance _matters_ This is an argument pretty specific to perfcounters: Performance analysis tools under Linux suck pretty summarily. Yet, one of the major strengths of Linux is (or at least used to be) performance. So i find it very fitting that the kernel community takes performance analysis tooling into their own hand. 3) Strict quality control under a proven mode In the kernel repo i can be sure that: - No one will even think of adding autofools to tools/perf/. - No one will send us code with Hungarian notation and two spaces tabulation. - No one will put getopt.h into the code - No one will rewrite it in some weird language [ Or at least, even though such incidents might happen occasionally, i can just sit back in my chair and watch the resulting showdown on lkml, without having to worry about the outcome ;-) ] I can point contributors to well-established kernel coding principles, without having to argue no end about them. All in one - the Linux kernel is a fire breathing monster engine when it comes to producing good software. Who says it that that this infrastructure and experience can only be used to produce kernel space code? 4) Code reuse We actually use code from the kernel: list.h primitives and rbtrees.c. We privatized them for now under tools/perf/util/rbtree.[ch] and tools/perf/util/list.h because there's some header and type pollution in them, but it would be nice to include them directly and share the facilities. 5) Reality check for kernel developers I think kernel hackers need a reality check too. It's easy to say that user-space sucks - but now there's a way and channel that frustration via direct action and make a real difference. I do hope that the extra superfluous mental energies visible in this thread can be used for good purposes too ;-) 6) It's a lot of fun I never thought i'd say that - but hacking properly structured user-space code in the kernel repo is serious fun. It's even relaxing at times: i can be reasonably sure that i wont crash the kernel. All in one, we did this because we found that it produces better code in practice and does it faster - and i dont think we should rigidly limit the kernel repo to kernel-space projects alone. Ingo -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/