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Message-ID: <4AEB2C55.7040208@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:11:33 -0400
From: William Allen Simpson <william.allen.simpson@gmail.com>
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To: Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hp.com>
CC: apetlund@simula.no,
       =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ilpo_J=E4rvinen?= <ilpo.jarvinen@helsinki.fi>,
       Arnd Hannemann <hannemann@nets.rwth-aachen.de>,
       Eric Dumazet <eric.dumazet@gmail.com>, Netdev <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
       LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, shemminger@vyatta.com,
       David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/3] net: TCP thin linear timeouts
References: <6980f83370cc081eb82dc2e0bd65bcf4.squirrel@webmail.uio.no> <4AEB2362.5060601@hp.com>
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Rick Jones wrote:
> apetlund@simula.no wrote:
>>> Just how thin can a thin stream be when a thin stream is found thin? 
>>> (to the cadence of "How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a 
>>> woodchuck could chuck wood?")
> 
>>> Does a stream get so thin that a user's send could not be split into 
>>> four,
>>>  sub-MSS TCP segments?
>>
>>
>> That was a nifty idea: Anti-Nagle the segments to be able to trigger fast
>> retransmissions. I think it is possible.
>>
>> Besides using more resources on each send, this scheme will introduce the
>> need to delay parts of the segment, which is undesirable for
>> time-dependent applications (the intended target of the mechanisms).
>>
>> I think it would be fun to implement and play around with such a 
>> mechanism
>> to see the effects.
> 
> Indeed, it does feel a bit "anti-nagle" but at the same time, these thin 
> streams are supposed to be quite rare right?  I mean we have survived 20 
> odd years of congestion control and fast retransmission without it being 
> a big issue.
> 
> They are also supposed to not have terribly high bandwidth requirements 
> yes? Suppose that instead of an explicit "I promise to be thin" 
> setsockopt(), they instead set a Very Small (tm) in today's thinking 
> socket buffer size and the stack then picks the MSS to be no more than 
> 1/4 that size?  Or for that matter, assuming the permissions are 
> acceptable, the thin application makes a setsockopt(TCP_MAXSEG) call 
> such that the actual MSS is small enough to allow the send()'s to be 
> four (or more) segments.  And, if one wants to spin-away the anti-Nagle, 
> Nagle is defined by the send() being smaller than the MSS, so if the MSS 
> is smaller, it isn't anti-Nagle :)
> 
This is not a new idea.  Folks used to set the MSS really low for M$
Windows, so that their short little packets went over dialup links more
quickly and they saw a little bit more of their graphic as it crawled to
the screen.  Even though it was actually slower in total time, it "felt"
faster because of the continuing visual feedback.  It depended upon VJ
Header Prediction to keep the overhead down for the link.

These are/were called "TCP mice", and the result was routers and servers
being nibbled by mice.  Not pleasant.


> Further blue-skying...
> 
> If SACK were also enabled, it would seem that only loss of the last 
> segment in the "thin train" would be an issue?  Presumably, the thin 
> stream receiver would be in a position to detect this, perhaps with an 
> application-level timeout. Whether then it would suffice to allow the 
> receiving app to make a setsockopt() call to force an extra ACK or two 
> I'm not sure.  Perhaps if the thin-stream had a semi-aggressive 
> "heartbeat" going...
> 
Heartbeats are the usual solution for gaming.  Handles a host of
issues, including detection of clients that have become unreachable.

(No, these are not the same as TCP keep-alives.)

Beside my code in the field and widespread discussion, I know that Paul
Francis had several related papers a decade or so ago.  My memory is that
younger game coders weren't particularly avid readers....


> But it does seem that it should be possible to deal with this sort of 
> thing without having to make wholesale changes to TCP's RTO policies and 
> whatnot?
> 
Yep.
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