Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 17:03:43 +0100
From: Florian Mickler <florian@mickler.org>
To: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Cc: Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v4] Regression: sched: automated per session task groups
Message-ID: <20101206170343.231b0bd3@schatten.dmk.lab>
In-Reply-To: <20101205194811.3df4e8bd@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
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On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 19:48:11 +0000
Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:

> > Your rant about big bloated GNOME is... well just a rant. You will
> > never be able to change it. You can just hope, that over time the
> > evolutionary aspects of open source development will fix it. 
> 
> They already are - its dying slowly but surely.
> 
But maybe they will start slimming it down and all will be well...


> > There is nothing wrong with trying to provide ease of use. Graphical
> > interfaces that are well designed are easier to use. 
> 
> Interesting how you associate ease of use with being bloated and oversize.

Didn't want to imply that. But I think I maybe assumed wrongly that
your usage of 'bloat' and 'oversize' was an overstatement and you were
ranting inherently at the complexity of graphical user interfaces..

> 
> > Most command-line people just can't cope with the unstable nature of
> > interfaces in the graphical world.
> 
> Ah of course. How sweet, your response to a point about the arrogance of
> certain desktop attitudes is to lecture, and make bogus pronouncements
> about command-line people. You might want to put the shovel away instead.

You seem to be angry. What's the problem? I find your reaction strange.

Isn't that a valid point? 

I really have problems with graphical programs and tools where you have
to click on the left side of the window on some 'X' Icon in Ubuntu and
right top corner on fluxbox. and on the third desktop setup ratpoison
is running with some super special key combos and all you can do is
strg-backspace, except it's disabled. 

With CLI programs I don't have those problems. I just strg-c most of
the time, if even necessary.

> 
> > CLI's are mostly better from an ergonomic view (old people,
> > heavy working hackers and other power users) because they provide
> > a stable focus point.
> 
> And a bit of pop psychology to go with it. I assume you are trying to
> talk about internalised and externalised models ?

*head scratch*

> 
> > Most hackers probably don't realize this, but images/icons and other
> 
> No of course not we are all dim, thank you for using small words. I am
> actually familiar with the real models here btw and there are a couple of
> rather important basics you are missing

I find your tone inappropriate. I was not trying to insult you or
anything. 

> 
> - Different people have different strengths in different areas - these
>   don't specifically line up with the senses. There isn't vast amounts of
>   evidence to support computing people are all strong in a particular
>   area either. You'll see in studies that some of them prefer to
>   diagram and flowchart, some write text, some have kinesthetic models
>   (movement and flow). I don't doubt there are others who sense it in
>   different ways.

Why do you think I did imply something other? I was talking about
humans in general. Language is an abstract concept.
It's not something we intuitivly know when we are born, we have to
learn it. 

I was getting at the fact that the brain adapts towards it's usage.
People doing lot's of sport do have less trouble learning a new kind of
sport. 
People that do hack a lot on computers have less trouble learning to
use a new tool. 
A physics professor has less trouble understanding a new theory
about the beginning of the world. 

People working a lot with programming languages and on the commandline
are more used to it. Other people find interfaces that resemble real
world items easier to use, because they aren't used to inputting
commands in text form. 


> - Visual and textual data communicate different things more effectively
>   (as do sounds, smells, movements, ....) and are processed with
>   different natural preferences by different people
> 
> - Oh and there is no evidence I've ever seen to suggest old people are
>   more text oriented.
> 
> So any notion of CLI's or GUI's being better for [class of people] is
> generally na?ve. It depends what is being done, who is doing it and the
> situation. 

Indeed. I didn't try to classify people at all. I'm kind of sad you
would assume that.

> 
> If you really want to understand the trade-offs in a graphical world
> watch some good CAD operators for an hour. They'll use the same tools in
> very different ways - some very command line, some heavily
> mouse/trackball, others graphical but with hotkeys, and they'll often
> shift approach according to task.
> 
> > graphical interfaces are more similar to real life and are thus easier
> > to use for 'unadapted' people.
> 
> If you wish to see an unadapted person you probably want to go look at
> amazonian tribes. Bit different.

I guess that is what I mean.

> 
> But then the GUI world is the world that put "logout" under "start" 8)
> and thinks that "Insert OLE Object" is a good thing to put on a menu.

:-) 

> 
> Alan

Regards,
Flo
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