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From: Spencer Shepler <sshepler@microsoft.com>
To: Marc Eshel <eshel@us.ibm.com>,
        "spencer.shepler@gmail.com" <spencer.shepler@gmail.com>
CC: Mailing List Linux NFS <linux-nfs@vger.kernel.org>,
        "Christoph Anton Mitterer" <calestyo@scientia.net>,
        "Myklebust, Trond" <Trond.Myklebust@netapp.com>,
        Steve Dickson <SteveD@redhat.com>, "nfsv4@ietf.org" <nfsv4@ietf.org>,
        Dr Fields James Bruce <bfields@fieldses.org>,
        Ric Wheeler <ric.wheeler@usenix.org>,
        "linux-nfs-owner@vger.kernel.org" <linux-nfs-owner@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: RE: [nfsv4] XATTRs in NFS?
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 20:49:53 +0000
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Hi, Marc.

At this point the agenda is full .. based on maximum time.  But I am open to shifting things around a little if the other presenters are willing to adjust their time allotment. 

I suggest that  you and I work this together off the cc'd aliases and you can send a summary when we work out the details.

Spencer

> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfsv4-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nfsv4-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Marc Eshel
> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 1:44 PM
> To: spencer.shepler@gmail.com
> Cc: Mailing List Linux NFS; Christoph Anton Mitterer; Myklebust, Trond; Steve
> Dickson; nfsv4@ietf.org; Dr Fields James Bruce; Ric Wheeler; linux-nfs-
> owner@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: [nfsv4] XATTRs in NFS?
> 
> Hi Spencer,
> Is it still possible to get on the agenda fir IETF 88, I just got approval to travel.
> We can use about 15 minutes, or what ever is available to discussion the
> future of named attributes in NFS. The two main questions that we need
> answer are:
> 1. Do we need them? what applications use them and how.
> 2. Can we have a more simple model that handles just user attributes.
> 
> Input is welcome to help me make the case at the meeting.
> 
> Thanks, Marc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From:   Ric Wheeler <rwheeler@redhat.com>
> To:     Dr Fields James Bruce <bfields@fieldses.org>,
> Cc:     "Myklebust, Trond" <Trond.Myklebust@netapp.com>, Christoph
> Anton
> Mitterer <calestyo@scientia.net>, Mailing List Linux NFS <linux-
> nfs@vger.kernel.org>, Steve Dickson <SteveD@redhat.com>
> Date:   10/28/2013 11:32 AM
> Subject:        Re: XATTRs in NFS?
> Sent by:        linux-nfs-owner@vger.kernel.org
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/28/2013 02:08 PM, Dr Fields James Bruce wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 02:00:58PM -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> >> On 10/28/2013 01:49 PM, Myklebust, Trond wrote:
> >>> On Oct 28, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christoph Anton Mitterer
> <calestyo@scientia.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, 2013-10-28 at 11:40 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> >>>>> Then you end up with large directories and an extra name per inode
> that needs to
> >>>>> be stored and extra lookups for each file when you do a whole file
> system crawl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Certainly not as easy as adding and xattrs with that information :)
> >>>> And I think there's another reason why it wouldn't work...
> >>>>
> >>>> Imagine I change my system to encode what should be XATTRs in
> hardlink
> >>>> pseudo files...
> >>>>
> >>>> If I have such pair locally e.g. on my ext4:
> >>>> /foo/bar/actual/file
> >>>> /meta/<SHA512 identifier>.2342348324
> >>>>
> >>>> And now move/copy the file via the network to the archive, I'd have
> to
> >>>> copy both files (which is really annoying), and I'd guess the inode
> >>>> coupling would get los (and at least the name wouldn't fit anymore).
> >>>>
> >>>> So the whole thing is IMHO not even a workaround.
> >>> OK. So you're going to do XATTRs for us?
> >>>
> >>> Trond
> >> Now that pNFS is perfect and labeled NFS has made it upstream, I
> >> think that Steve D must be looking for something to keep him busy :)
> > I agree with Trond that we first really need good evidence about exactly
> > who wants this and why.
> >
> > --b.
> 
> For the user space xattrs, many applications store various types of
> metadata.
> Gluster for example heavily uses xattrs, other programs do things like
> data
> scrubbing (look for a long unchanged file, compute a has and store it as
> an
> xattr) or simply use it to annotate the file with the name of the program
> that
> created it. Think of it as file decorations or annotations.
> 
> Today, if we store files in NFS that have xattrs, we do in fact cause data
> loss.
> 
> I can understand an answer of "this would be hard to do for NFS and need
> to go
> through IETF" but think that xattrs are well enough established in Linux
> and
> supported in the tool chain that it is way too late to question whether or
> not
> supporting them is a worth our time.
> 
> Ric
> 
> --
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> 
> 
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