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From:   "NeilBrown" <neilb@suse.de>
To:     "Trond Myklebust" <trondmy@hammerspace.com>
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Subject: Re: [man-pages RFC PATCH v4] statx, inode: document the new
 STATX_INO_VERSION field
In-reply-to: <8a71986b4fb61cd9b4adc8b4250118cbb19eec58.camel@hammerspace.com>
References: <20220907111606.18831-1-jlayton@kernel.org>,
 <166255065346.30452.6121947305075322036@noble.neil.brown.name>,
 <79aaf122743a295ddab9525d9847ac767a3942aa.camel@kernel.org>,
 <20220907125211.GB17729@fieldses.org>,
 <771650a814ab1ff4dc5473d679936b747d9b6cf5.camel@kernel.org>,
 <8a71986b4fb61cd9b4adc8b4250118cbb19eec58.camel@hammerspace.com>
Date:   Thu, 08 Sep 2022 10:31:08 +1000
Message-id: <166259706887.30452.6749778447732126953@noble.neil.brown.name>
Precedence: bulk

On Wed, 07 Sep 2022, Trond Myklebust wrote:
> On Wed, 2022-09-07 at 09:12 -0400, Jeff Layton wrote:
> > On Wed, 2022-09-07 at 08:52 -0400, J. Bruce Fields wrote:
> > > On Wed, Sep 07, 2022 at 08:47:20AM -0400, Jeff Layton wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 2022-09-07 at 21:37 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 07 Sep 2022, Jeff Layton wrote:
> > > > > > +The change to \fIstatx.stx_ino_version\fP is not atomic with
> > > > > > respect to the
> > > > > > +other changes in the inode. On a write, for instance, the
> > > > > > i_version it usually
> > > > > > +incremented before the data is copied into the pagecache.
> > > > > > Therefore it is
> > > > > > +possible to see a new i_version value while a read still
> > > > > > shows the old data.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Doesn't that make the value useless?
> > > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > No, I don't think so. It's only really useful for comparing to an
> > > > older
> > > > sample anyway. If you do "statx; read; statx" and the value
> > > > hasn't
> > > > changed, then you know that things are stable.=20
> > >=20
> > > I don't see how that helps.=C2=A0 It's still possible to get:
> > >=20
> > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reader=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0writer
> > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0------=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0------
> > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0i_version++
> > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0statx
> > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0read
> > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0statx
> > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0update page cache
> > >=20
> > > right?
> > >=20
> >=20
> > Yeah, I suppose so -- the statx wouldn't necessitate any locking. In
> > that case, maybe this is useless then other than for testing purposes
> > and userland NFS servers.
> >=20
> > Would it be better to not consume a statx field with this if so? What
> > could we use as an alternate interface? ioctl? Some sort of global
> > virtual xattr? It does need to be something per-inode.
>=20
> I don't see how a non-atomic change attribute is remotely useful even
> for NFS.
>=20
> The main problem is not so much the above (although NFS clients are
> vulnerable to that too) but the behaviour w.r.t. directory changes.
>=20
> If the server can't guarantee that file/directory/... creation and
> unlink are atomically recorded with change attribute updates, then the
> client has to always assume that the server is lying, and that it has
> to revalidate all its caches anyway. Cue endless readdir/lookup/getattr
> requests after each and every directory modification in order to check
> that some other client didn't also sneak in a change of their own.

NFS re-export doesn't support atomic change attributes on directories.
Do we see the endless revalidate requests after directory modification
in that situation?  Just curious.

Thanks,
NeilBrown