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From:   Pascal Van Leeuwen <pvanleeuwen@verimatrix.com>
To:     Jarkko Sakkinen <jarkko.sakkinen@linux.intel.com>,
        Ken Goldman <kgold@linux.ibm.com>
CC:     "Safford, David (GE Global Research, US)" <david.safford@ge.com>,
        Mimi Zohar <zohar@linux.ibm.com>,
        "linux-integrity@vger.kernel.org" <linux-integrity@vger.kernel.org>,
        "stable@vger.kernel.org" <stable@vger.kernel.org>,
        "open list:ASYMMETRIC KEYS" <keyrings@vger.kernel.org>,
        "open list:CRYPTO API" <linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org>,
        open list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: RE: [PATCH] KEYS: asym_tpm: Switch to get_random_bytes()
Thread-Topic: [PATCH] KEYS: asym_tpm: Switch to get_random_bytes()
Thread-Index: AQHVdI4da48CsX6QxkCmhP/96hjLv6dHalaAgAFrf4CAABaxAIAAUs4AgAAPVYCAATcGAIAAU+GAgAAY0oCAA2pSAIABcvOAgAGtUICAAAEjgIAAgGmAgAACUoCAAAYDIA==
Date:   Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:09:29 +0000
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-crypto-owner@vger.kernel.org <linux-crypto-owner@vger.kernel.=
org> On Behalf Of
> Jarkko Sakkinen
> Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 9:42 AM
> To: Ken Goldman <kgold@linux.ibm.com>
> Cc: Safford, David (GE Global Research, US) <david.safford@ge.com>; Mimi =
Zohar
> <zohar@linux.ibm.com>; linux-integrity@vger.kernel.org; stable@vger.kerne=
l.org; open
> list:ASYMMETRIC KEYS <keyrings@vger.kernel.org>; open list:CRYPTO API <li=
nux-
> crypto@vger.kernel.org>; open list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
> Subject: Re: [PATCH] KEYS: asym_tpm: Switch to get_random_bytes()
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 10:33:15AM +0300, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 02:53:39AM +0300, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 02:49:35AM +0300, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 06:13:01PM -0400, Ken Goldman wrote:
> > > > > The TPM library specification states that the TPM must comply wit=
h NIST
> > > > > SP800-90 A.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/membership/certification/tpm-ce=
rtified-products/
> > > > >
> > > > > shows that the TPMs get third party certification, Common Criteri=
a EAL 4+.
> > > > >
> > > > > While it's theoretically possible that an attacker could compromi=
se
> > > > > both the TPM vendors and the evaluation agencies, we do have EAL =
4+
> > > > > assurance against both 1 and 2.
> > > >
> > > > Certifications do not equal to trust.
> > >
> > > And for trusted keys the least trust solution is to do generation
> > > with the kernel assets and sealing with TPM. With TEE the least
> > > trust solution is equivalent.
> > >
> > > Are you proposing that the kernel random number generation should
> > > be removed? That would be my conclusion of this discussion if I
> > > would agree any of this (I don't).
> >
> > The whole point of rng in kernel has been to use multiple entropy
> > sources in order to disclose the trust issue.
> >
> > Even with weaker entropy than TPM RNG it is still a better choice for
> > *non-TPM* keys because of better trustworthiness. Using only TPM RNG is
> > a design flaw that has existed probably because when trusted keys were
> > introduced TPM was more niche than it is today.
> >
> > Please remember that a trusted key is not a TPM key. The reality
> > distortion field is strong here it seems.
>=20
> And why not use RDRAND on x86 instead of TPM RNG here? It is also FIPS
> compliant and has less latency than TPM RNG. :-) If we go with this
> route, lets pick the HRNG that performs best.
>=20
There's certification and certification. Not all certificates are
created equally. But if it matches your specific requirements, why not.
There's a _lot_ of HW out there that's not x86 though ...

And: is RDRAND certified for _all_ x86 processors? Or just Intel?
Or perhaps even only _specific (server) models_ of CPU's?
I also know for a fact that some older AMD processors had a broken
RDRAND implementation ...

So the choice really should be up to the application or user.

Regards,
Pascal van Leeuwen
Silicon IP Architect, Multi-Protocol Engines @ Verimatrix
www.insidesecure.com