From:   Andreas Dilger <adilger@dilger.ca>
Message-Id: <80675DA8-062B-4A31-ACC9-449AC55D1847@dilger.ca>
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Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 0/6] Allow setting file birth time with utimensat()
Date:   Sat, 23 Feb 2019 10:32:37 -0800
In-Reply-To: <20190222190048.GA29624@vader>
Cc:     Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>,
        linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
        Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, kernel-team@fb.com,
        Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
        linux-btrfs <linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org>,
        Ext4 Developers List <linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org>,
        linux-f2fs-devel@lists.sourceforge.net,
        linux-xfs <linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org>,
        Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>,
        Jaegeuk Kim <jaegeuk@kernel.org>,
        Steve French <sfrench@samba.org>
To:     Omar Sandoval <osandov@osandov.com>
References: <cover.1550136164.git.osandov@fb.com>
 <20190214220626.GV14116@dastard> <20190214231429.GE9819@vader>
 <20190215001657.GY14116@dastard> <20190215065947.GG9819@vader>
 <72A04438-5991-4A60-8AAB-021A41DE6711@dilger.ca>
 <20190218221820.GF14116@dastard> <20190222190048.GA29624@vader>
Sender: linux-ext4-owner@vger.kernel.org
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> On Feb 22, 2019, at 11:00 AM, Omar Sandoval <osandov@osandov.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 09:18:20AM +1100, Dave Chinner wrote:
>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 06:57:45PM -0700, Andreas Dilger wrote:
>>> While it may be a bit of a stretch to call this "forensic evidence",
>> 
>> We do forensic analysis of corrupt filesystems looking for evidence
>> of what went wrong, not just looking for evidence of what happened
>> on systems that have been broken into.
>> 
>>> making it hard to change from except via total root compromise by a
>>> skilled hacker is very useful.
>> 
>> *nod*.
>> 
>>> If this were to go in (which I'm not in favour of), then there would
>>> need to be a CONFIG and/or runtime knob to turn it off (or better to
>>> only turn it on), similar to how FIPS and other security options can
>>> only go in one direction.
>> 
>> The problem here is that "inode birth time" is being conflated with
>> "user document creation time". These two things are very different.
>> 
>> i.e. One is filesystem internal information and is not related to
>> when the original copy of the data in the file was created, the
>> other is user specified metadata that is related to the file data
>> contents and needs to travel with the data, not the filesystem.
>> 
>> IMO, trying to make one on-disk field hold two different types of
>> information defeats one or the other purpose, and nobody knows which
>> one the field stores for any given file.
>> 
>> I'd suggest that "authored date" should be a generic system xattr so
>> most filesystems support it, not just those that have a birth time
>> field on disk. Sure, modify it through utimesat() and expose it
>> through statx() (as authored time, not birth time), but store it a
>> system xattr rather than an internal filesystem metadata field that
>> requires was never intended to be user modifiable.
> 
> It seems that this is the general consensus, so I'll look into
> implementing this functionality as an xattr.

I would recommend to look at how Samba is storing these attributes
today, and do the same thing, maybe add support into GNU coreutils
to handle this transparently.

Cheers, Andreas


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