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([2a02:17d0:4a6:5700::47f]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f21sm1207295lfm.90.2019.09.18.07.00.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Sep 2019 07:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Linux 5.3-rc8 To: Lennart Poettering , Willy Tarreau Cc: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" , Matthew Garrett , Linus Torvalds , "Ahmed S. Darwish" , Vito Caputo , Andreas Dilger , Jan Kara , Ray Strode , William Jon McCann , zhangjs , linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, lkml References: <20190917052438.GA26923@1wt.eu> <2508489.jOnZlRuxVn@merkaba> <20190917121156.GC6762@mit.edu> <20190917155743.GB31567@gardel-login> <20190917162137.GA27921@1wt.eu> <20190917171328.GA31798@gardel-login> <20190917172929.GD27999@1wt.eu> <20190918133806.GA32346@gardel-login> From: "Alexander E. Patrakov" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:59:31 +0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190918133806.GA32346@gardel-login> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms000105010902080405070607" Sender: linux-ext4-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000105010902080405070607 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-PH Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 18.09.2019 18:38, Lennart Poettering =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=88=D0=B5=D1=82: > On Di, 17.09.19 19:29, Willy Tarreau (w@1wt.eu) wrote: >=20 >>> What do you expect these systems to do though? >>> >>> I mean, think about general purpose distros: they put together live >>> images that are supposed to work on a myriad of similar (as in: same >>> arch) but otherwise very different systems (i.e. VMs that might lack >>> any form of RNG source the same as beefy servers with muliple sources= >>> the same as older netbooks with few and crappy sources, ...). They ca= n't >>> know what the specific hw will provide or won't. It's not their >>> incompetence that they build the image like that. It's a common, very= >>> common usecase to install a system via SSH, and it's also very common= >>> to have very generic images for a large number varied systems to run >>> on. >> >> I'm totally file with installing the system via SSH, using a temporary= >> SSH key. I do make a strong distinction between the installation phase= >> and the final deployment. The SSH key used *for installation* doesn't >> need to the be same as the final one. And very often at the end of the= >> installation we'll have produced enough entropy to produce a correct >> key. >=20 > That's not how systems are built today though. And I am not sure they > should be. I mean, the majority of systems at this point probably have > some form of hardware (or virtualized) RNG available (even raspi has > one these days!), so generating these keys once at boot is totally > OK. Probably a number of others need just a few seconds to get the > entropy needed, where things are totally OK too. The only problem is > systems that lack any reasonable source of entropy and where > initialization of the pool will take overly long. >=20 > I figure we can reduce the number of systems where entropy is scarce > quite a bit if we'd start crediting entropy by default from various hw > rngs we currently don't credit entropy for. For example, the TPM and > older intel/amd chipsets. You currently have to specify > rng_core.default_quality=3D1000 on the kernel cmdline to make them > credit entropy. I am pretty sure this should be the default now, in a > world where CONFIG_RANDOM_TRUST_CPU=3Dy is set anyway. i.e. why say > RDRAND is fine but those chipsets are not? That makes no sense to me. >=20 > I am very sure that crediting entropy to chipset hwrngs is a much > better way to solve the issue on those systems than to just hand out > rubbish randomness. Very well said. However, 1000 is more than the hard-coded quality of=20 some existing rngs, and so would send a misleading message that they are = somehow worse. I would suggest case-by-case reevaluation of all existing = hwrng drivers by their maintainers, and then setting the default to=20 something like 899, so that evaluated drivers have priority. --=20 Alexander E. 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