Return-path: Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]:24652 "EHLO ug-out-1314.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1759515AbXGYApd convert rfc822-to-8bit (ORCPT ); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:45:33 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j3so255509ugf for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:45:31 +0200 From: "Maurizio Monge" To: Stephen.Clark@seclark.us Subject: Re: [ipw3945-devel] Request for help... Cc: "Jeff Garzik" , "James Ketrenos" , ipw3945-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org, Axj In-Reply-To: <46A69998.7020108@seclark.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed References: <1185289332.46a61474a444c@mail.bluebottle.com> <20070724161226.GA24344@tuxdriver.com> <46A64503.1080003@seclark.us> <20070724203035.GG24344@tuxdriver.com> <46A66B63.6030006@garzik.org> <46A6A447.2080903@linux.intel.com> <46A69359.4030201@garzik.org> <46A69998.7020108@seclark.us> Sender: linux-wireless-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: I agree with Stephen, and i purchased a laptop with intel graphics/wireless for exactly the same reason too. Now i really hope that this thread instead of continuing as a flamewar will positively help intel developer to have better interactions with wireless-dev people, as it would be in the best interest for both. My =80.02 (but note that they are =80 and not $ :) ) On 7/25/07, Stephen Clark wrote: > Jeff Garzik wrote: > > >James Ketrenos wrote: > > > > > >>Jeff Garzik wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>There is a reason why we say "release early, release often." If > >>>wireless developers don't hear from Intel on a regular basis, > >>> > >>> > >>The "community" vs. "Intel" slant is really getting old. > >>*WE* are part of the community. *WE* have submitted patches. *WE*= have > >>done work to bring wireless forward. *WE* are wireless developers. > >> > >>It isn't Intel's fault that certain people have historically made i= t so > >>difficult to get code to into wireless-dev's mac80211 (and eventual= ly > >>*maybe* upstream) that contributors have decided to focus on gettin= g > >>their code out to users through other means. > >> > >>A version of mac80211 being available out-of-tree with features not > >>found in wireless-dev isn't the problem. The problem is that peopl= e > >>have made it too difficult to innovate and develop in wireless-dev. > >> > >> > > > >Well, the facts according to my search are: > > > >* last iwlwifi submit was almost two months ago, in a form difficult= to > >review and discuss on the mailing list, save for a bug fix. And I n= ote, > >the submission went into wireless-dev rapidly. > > > >* last mac80211 patches were almost three months ago, save for two s= mall > >add-ioctl patches from Mohamed and Hong. > > > >* no one else seems to have the same trouble getting patches in > > > >Whereas other developers are actively posting patches, big and small= , to > >linux-wireless on a regular basis. I just don't see much activity a= t > >all on {linux-kernel,linux-wireless,netdev} from Intel with regards = to > >the new wireless. > > > >Intel is the only wireless driver developer doing development > >"elsewhere", rather than where the wireless hackers hang out. Even > >assuming a hypothetical worst case of 100% patch drops, you should b= e > >working and posting where other developers are also working and post= ing. > > That is just a BASIC part of the open source kernel engineering pr= ocess. > > > >Another key part of open source is "release early, release often" so > >that people are aware of your work and needs, and can provide rapid > >feedback. That means posting most patches to linux-wireless as soon= as > >they work on your basic quick-test setup. Intel is definitely not > >"releasing early and often" from the LKML perspective. > > > >Though in fairness, I am a bit disappointed that wireless-dev seems = to > >occasionally become a resting place for drivers, rather than just a = pit > >stop on the way to upstream. In particular, stuff still has not bee= n > >moved out of drivers/net/wireless/mac80211 and into > >drivers/net/wireless, which is a basic and easy step to get all code > >ready for upstream. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > I find it really sad that a hardware vendor that is willing to write = and develope drivers for Linux for their hardware aren't helped more by= "the community" or is the "the community" only interested in hacking d= rivers where the manufacturer give no or minimal support? > > I appreciate Intel's support for being open and purposely bought a la= ptop that had an Intel graphics chipset and an Intel wireless card. > > My $.02 > Steve > "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, > deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Ben Franklin) > > "The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty > decreases." (Thomas Jefferson) > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browse= r. > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Ipw3945-devel mailing list > Ipw3945-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ipw3945-devel > --=20 Ciao Maurizio http://stregatto.wordpress.com "Well we all shine on Like the moon and the stars and the sun" (John Lennon) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-wireles= s" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html