Message-ID: <46A69359.4030201@garzik.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:03:37 -0400
From: Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: James Ketrenos <jketreno@linux.intel.com>
CC: "John W. Linville" <linville@tuxdriver.com>,
	Stephen Clark <Stephen.Clark@seclark.us>,
	ipw3945-devel@lists.sourceforge.net,
	linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org, Axj <axjslack@bluebottle.com>
Subject: Re: [ipw3945-devel] Request for help...
References: <1185289332.46a61474a444c@mail.bluebottle.com>	<20070724161226.GA24344@tuxdriver.com>	<46A64503.1080003@seclark.us>	<20070724203035.GG24344@tuxdriver.com> <46A66B63.6030006@garzik.org> <46A6A447.2080903@linux.intel.com>
In-Reply-To: <46A6A447.2080903@linux.intel.com>
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Sender: linux-wireless-owner@vger.kernel.org

James Ketrenos wrote:
> Jeff Garzik wrote:
> 
>> There is a reason why we say "release early, release often."  If 
>> wireless developers don't hear from Intel on a regular basis,
> 
> The "community" vs. "Intel" slant is really getting old. 
> *WE* are part of the community.  *WE* have submitted patches.  *WE* have 
> done work to bring wireless forward.  *WE* are wireless developers.
> 
> It isn't Intel's fault that certain people have historically made it so 
> difficult to get code to into wireless-dev's mac80211 (and eventually 
> *maybe* upstream) that contributors have decided to focus on getting 
> their code out to users through other means.
> 
> A version of mac80211 being available out-of-tree with features not 
> found in wireless-dev isn't the problem.  The problem is that people 
> have made it too difficult to innovate and develop in wireless-dev.

Well, the facts according to my search are:

* last iwlwifi submit was almost two months ago, in a form difficult to 
review and discuss on the mailing list, save for a bug fix.  And I note, 
the submission went into wireless-dev rapidly.

* last mac80211 patches were almost three months ago, save for two small 
add-ioctl patches from Mohamed and Hong.

* no one else seems to have the same trouble getting patches in

Whereas other developers are actively posting patches, big and small, to 
linux-wireless on a regular basis.  I just don't see much activity at 
all on {linux-kernel,linux-wireless,netdev} from Intel with regards to 
the new wireless.

Intel is the only wireless driver developer doing development 
"elsewhere", rather than where the wireless hackers hang out.  Even 
assuming a hypothetical worst case of 100% patch drops, you should be 
working and posting where other developers are also working and posting. 
  That is just a BASIC part of the open source kernel engineering process.

Another key part of open source is "release early, release often" so 
that people are aware of your work and needs, and can provide rapid 
feedback.  That means posting most patches to linux-wireless as soon as 
they work on your basic quick-test setup.  Intel is definitely not 
"releasing early and often" from the LKML perspective.

Though in fairness, I am a bit disappointed that wireless-dev seems to 
occasionally become a resting place for drivers, rather than just a pit 
stop on the way to upstream.  In particular, stuff still has not been 
moved out of drivers/net/wireless/mac80211 and into 
drivers/net/wireless, which is a basic and easy step to get all code 
ready for upstream.

	Jeff