Release 0.9.7: Mon Mar 26 16:55:48 EST 2001
* Can now configure everything except the CONFIG_-less CRIS symbols.
* Prefix-stripping for backward compatibility with, e.g. CONFIG_3C515.
* Resolve all FIXMES, including Andre Hedrick's IDE vendor stuff.
CML2 can now configure symbols with leading numerics, removing the
last remaining CML1 compatibility problem. Once the CRIS-architecture
symbols are brought into conformance with the CML1 spec, CML2 will
be able to completely configure a stock kernel tree. All known gaps
in the CML1 translation have been fixed.
--
<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
The abortion rights and gun control debates are twin aspects of a deeper
question --- does an individual ever have the right to make decisions
that are literally life-or-death? And if not the individual, who does?
Would it be a good idea to have support for multiple Configure.help
files in the config system?
The main advantage would be that arch specific settings could
have an arch specific help file as well.
Anybody who knows: Would it be a easy to add support for this if
this is considered a good idea?
/Johan
On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:28:33PM +0200, Johan Adolfsson wrote:
> Would it be a good idea to have support for multiple Configure.help
> files in the config system?
> The main advantage would be that arch specific settings could
> have an arch specific help file as well.
I don't see why this would be an advantage. IMHO Documentation belongs
in the Documentation tree and configuration documentation belongs in
Configure.help. You almost never read that file yourself, only the
various kernel configure tools read it, and tools don't have a problem
with large files. It's better to have the documentation at a single
point, not scattered around in the kernel tree.
> Anybody who knows: Would it be a easy to add support for this if
> this is considered a good idea?
Shouldn't be too hard.
Erik
--
J.A.K. (Erik) Mouw, Information and Communication Theory Group, Department
of Electrical Engineering, Faculty of Information Technology and Systems,
Delft University of Technology, PO BOX 5031, 2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands
Phone: +31-15-2783635 Fax: +31-15-2781843 Email: [email protected]
WWW: http://www-ict.its.tudelft.nl/~erik/
Erik Mouw wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:28:33PM +0200, Johan Adolfsson wrote:
> > Would it be a good idea to have support for multiple Configure.help
> > files in the config system?
> > The main advantage would be that arch specific settings could
> > have an arch specific help file as well.
>
> I don't see why this would be an advantage. IMHO Documentation belongs
> in the Documentation tree and configuration documentation belongs in
> Configure.help. You almost never read that file yourself, only the
> various kernel configure tools read it, and tools don't have a problem
> with large files. It's better to have the documentation at a single
> point, not scattered around in the kernel tree.
Well, the configure help is now "scattered around": The configuration
options are in the "configure.in" files, and hte docs for them are
somewhere else, even if it's in one large file.
I'm not sure if Larry's CML2 has the help for the options near the
options or not, but that's how I'd like it to be if I were designing
the thing from scratch. (a bit like emacs' functions: there too, you
give the help text near the definition of a functions!)
Roger.
--
** [email protected] ** http://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2137555 **
*-- BitWizard writes Linux device drivers for any device you may have! --*
* There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots.
* There are also old, bald pilots.
Rogier Wolff wrote:
> I'm not sure if Larry's CML2 has the help for the options near the
^^^^^^ ehhhm. That's Eric. Sorry.
Roger.
--
** [email protected] ** http://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2137555 **
*-- BitWizard writes Linux device drivers for any device you may have! --*
* There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots.
* There are also old, bald pilots.
I went ahead and implemented the change last night anyway and I
will submit the patches and see if it will be accepted or not.
The idea is that it first check in arch/$ARCH/Configure.help
and if the file or the help is not found there,
check Documentation/Configure.help.
I believe there is an advantage from a maintenance point of view.
It least for our CRIS architecture, I don't think it's any benefit to
"bloat" the Documentation/Configure.help with a lot of
CONFIG_ETRAX entries for the various hardware inerfaces
when the help and config can be kept locally.
BTW: I added this to scripts/Configure and scripts/Menuconfig
but I know to little tcl/tk to get it to work for the xconfig case.
The variable $ARCH was not found and I don't know how to make
it get it from the environment variables.
/Johan
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogier Wolff <[email protected]>
To: Erik Mouw <[email protected]>
Cc: Johan Adolfsson <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: Arch specific/multiple Configure.help files?
> Erik Mouw wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:28:33PM +0200, Johan Adolfsson wrote:
> > > Would it be a good idea to have support for multiple Configure.help
> > > files in the config system?
> > > The main advantage would be that arch specific settings could
> > > have an arch specific help file as well.
> >
> > I don't see why this would be an advantage. IMHO Documentation belongs
> > in the Documentation tree and configuration documentation belongs in
> > Configure.help. You almost never read that file yourself, only the
> > various kernel configure tools read it, and tools don't have a problem
> > with large files. It's better to have the documentation at a single
> > point, not scattered around in the kernel tree.
>
> Well, the configure help is now "scattered around": The configuration
> options are in the "configure.in" files, and hte docs for them are
> somewhere else, even if it's in one large file.
>
> I'm not sure if Larry's CML2 has the help for the options near the
> options or not, but that's how I'd like it to be if I were designing
> the thing from scratch. (a bit like emacs' functions: there too, you
> give the help text near the definition of a functions!)
>
> Roger.
>
> --
> ** [email protected] ** http://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2137555 **
> *-- BitWizard writes Linux device drivers for any device you may have! --*
> * There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots.
> * There are also old, bald pilots.
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
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> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>
[email protected] wrote:
>
> I went ahead and implemented the change last night anyway and I
> will submit the patches and see if it will be accepted or not.
> The idea is that it first check in arch/$ARCH/Configure.help
> and if the file or the help is not found there,
> check Documentation/Configure.help.
>
> I believe there is an advantage from a maintenance point of view.
> It least for our CRIS architecture, I don't think it's any benefit to
> "bloat" the Documentation/Configure.help with a lot of
> CONFIG_ETRAX entries for the various hardware inerfaces
> when the help and config can be kept locally.
>
This was already discussed on kbuild list.
It is better to have only 1 Configure.help. This help
translation of
the file and help busy developers. They should not rewrite
texts
in every Configure.help.
If you should provide a special help on a specific ARCH you
could
modify the symbols:
instead of
: bool 'std IPC support' CONFIG_IPC
you can do:
: bool 'arch specific IPC help' CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
: define_bool CONFIG_IPC CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
ESR CML2 have the defualt path for Configure.help build in
the rules files, but it can be overriden by command options
to use an other Configure.help (the format do not change).
It is also designed so that a distribution can include
a translation of Configure.help. (But we don't expect
to include translation in std linux kernel)
> BTW: I added this to scripts/Configure and scripts/Menuconfig
> but I know to little tcl/tk to get it to work for the xconfig case.
> The variable $ARCH was not found and I don't know how to make
> it get it from the environment variables.
>
$ARCH is set on the top of the main Makefile. You can copy
the small shell script from here.
giacomo
> /Johan
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Giacomo Catenazzi <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: Erik Mouw <[email protected]>; Rogier Wolff
<[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: Arch specific/multiple Configure.help files?
> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > I went ahead and implemented the change last night anyway and I
> > will submit the patches and see if it will be accepted or not.
> > The idea is that it first check in arch/$ARCH/Configure.help
> > and if the file or the help is not found there,
> > check Documentation/Configure.help.
> >
> > I believe there is an advantage from a maintenance point of view.
> > It least for our CRIS architecture, I don't think it's any benefit to
> > "bloat" the Documentation/Configure.help with a lot of
> > CONFIG_ETRAX entries for the various hardware inerfaces
> > when the help and config can be kept locally.
> >
>
> This was already discussed on kbuild list.
> It is better to have only 1 Configure.help. This help
> translation of the file and help busy developers.
> They should not rewrite texts in every Configure.help.
I can't see that 1 file makes it easier.
The same help text is only present in one file,
either arch/$ARCH/Configure.help or
Documentation/Configure.help
The help system first checks the file in arch/$ARCH and if
the help is not present there it checks the one in Documentation/
> If you should provide a special help on a specific ARCH you
> could modify the symbols: instead of
> : bool 'std IPC support' CONFIG_IPC
> you can do:
> : bool 'arch specific IPC help' CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
> : define_bool CONFIG_IPC CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
Don't know if you missunderstood me or if I missunderstand
you here.
The typical use for the arch specific help file would only cover
the arch specific CONFIG options (although it could "override"
the general help text in Documentation/Configure.help with
an arch specific one, but if you do that I guess you're doing
something wrong)
> ESR CML2 have the defualt path for Configure.help build in
> the rules files, but it can be overriden by command options
> to use an other Configure.help (the format do not change).
I want to be able to use two help files.
> It is also designed so that a distribution can include
> a translation of Configure.help. (But we don't expect
> to include translation in std linux kernel)
>
>
> > BTW: I added this to scripts/Configure and scripts/Menuconfig
> > but I know to little tcl/tk to get it to work for the xconfig case.
> > The variable $ARCH was not found and I don't know how to make
> > it get it from the environment variables.
> >
>
> $ARCH is set on the top of the main Makefile. You can copy
> the small shell script from here.
I found the $env(ARCH) syntax by searching the net a little so now
make xconfig works with 2 helpfiles as well.
> giacomo
>
> > /Johan
/Johan
[email protected] wrote:
>
> > This was already discussed on kbuild list.
> > It is better to have only 1 Configure.help. This help
> > translation of the file and help busy developers.
> > They should not rewrite texts in every Configure.help.
>
> I can't see that 1 file makes it easier.
> The same help text is only present in one file,
> either arch/$ARCH/Configure.help or
> Documentation/Configure.help
Ok, if you use both files.
Better a single file because:
- I18n support. (But not a big issue for us).
- CML2 merges all arch configurations in one file (really in 4
file:
rules, menu strings, ...)
Thus because we merge also configuration, I think that it is
better
not to split the helps.
- IIRC there is only few ARCH specific configuration, thus we
don't
reduce the size of che Configure.help
Note that the arch/config.in have to much configuration item
(but they repeat in (nearly) all arch/config.in files, thus
you
should count only the really arch specific item.
I would prefer to have config.in and help file togheter. But
in the
discussion in kbuild list, it come that is is better to merge
all configuration in one file and the strings in an other (and
thus
not to merge Configure.help to not heve a very huge file).
What are the advanteget to split the Configure.help?
>
> The help system first checks the file in arch/$ARCH and if
> the help is not present there it checks the one in Documentation/
>
> > If you should provide a special help on a specific ARCH you
> > could modify the symbols: instead of
> > : bool 'std IPC support' CONFIG_IPC
> > you can do:
> > : bool 'arch specific IPC help' CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
> > : define_bool CONFIG_IPC CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
>
> Don't know if you missunderstood me or if I missunderstand
> you here.
> The typical use for the arch specific help file would only cover
> the arch specific CONFIG options (although it could "override"
> the general help text in Documentation/Configure.help with
> an arch specific one, but if you do that I guess you're doing
> something wrong)
I think I missunderstood you. But this was the big issue for
splitting Configure.help. (Thus if an developer should use
at arch specific help, he should use this method)
>
> > ESR CML2 have the defualt path for Configure.help build in
> > the rules files, but it can be overriden by command options
> > to use an other Configure.help (the format do not change).
>
> I want to be able to use two help files.
I think it is not a big issue. In Makefile we can
: cat Conf.help.1 Conf.help2 > .Conf.help
giacomo
----- Original Message -----
From: Giacomo Catenazzi <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 09:44
Subject: Re: Arch specific/multiple Configure.help files?
> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > > This was already discussed on kbuild list.
> > > It is better to have only 1 Configure.help. This help
> > > translation of the file and help busy developers.
> > > They should not rewrite texts in every Configure.help.
> >
> > I can't see that 1 file makes it easier.
> > The same help text is only present in one file,
> > either arch/$ARCH/Configure.help or
> > Documentation/Configure.help
>
> Ok, if you use both files.
>
> Better a single file because:
> - I18n support. (But not a big issue for us).
I must admit that I haven't got a clue what that is:-)
> - CML2 merges all arch configurations in one file (really in 4
> file:
> rules, menu strings, ...)
> Thus because we merge also configuration, I think that it is
> better not to split the helps.
If this is solved by merging two files or if the config system
really uses two files doesn't really matter to me.
Merging files is probably a better approach if having
non-centralised help files can be accepted.
> - IIRC there is only few ARCH specific configuration, thus we
> don't
> reduce the size of che Configure.help
> Note that the arch/config.in have to much configuration item
> (but they repeat in (nearly) all arch/config.in files, thus
> you
> should count only the really arch specific item.
Here are some results:
$ wc arch/cris/Configure.help
621 4424 28373 arch/cris/Configure.help
$ wc Documentation/Configure.help
17480 121037 773694 Documentation/Configure.help
$ grep CONFIG arch/cris/Configure.help |wc
75 138 2337
$ grep CONFIG Documentation/Configure.help |wc
1486 1640 30135
it's not entiraly correct since the CONFIG_BLUETOOTH help
is in the arch/cris directory and that should probably be in
Documentation/ or in the OpenBT package and merged from there.
The file also contains the # LocalWords: rows from the original
Configure.help.
But the ETRAX/CRIS config is 3-5% of the total config.
Having the help close to the config sounds like a good idea
from a maintenance point of view.
> I would prefer to have config.in and help file togheter. But
> in the
> discussion in kbuild list, it come that is is better to merge
> all configuration in one file and the strings in an other (and
> thus
> not to merge Configure.help to not heve a very huge file).
>
>
> What are the advanteget to split the Configure.help?
>
> >
> > The help system first checks the file in arch/$ARCH and if
> > the help is not present there it checks the one in Documentation/
> >
>
>
> > > If you should provide a special help on a specific ARCH you
> > > could modify the symbols: instead of
> > > : bool 'std IPC support' CONFIG_IPC
> > > you can do:
> > > : bool 'arch specific IPC help' CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
> > > : define_bool CONFIG_IPC CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
> >
> > Don't know if you missunderstood me or if I missunderstand
> > you here.
> > The typical use for the arch specific help file would only cover
> > the arch specific CONFIG options (although it could "override"
> > the general help text in Documentation/Configure.help with
> > an arch specific one, but if you do that I guess you're doing
> > something wrong)
>
> I think I missunderstood you. But this was the big issue for
> splitting Configure.help. (Thus if an developer should use
> at arch specific help, he should use this method)
>
> >
> > > ESR CML2 have the defualt path for Configure.help build in
> > > the rules files, but it can be overriden by command options
> > > to use an other Configure.help (the format do not change).
> >
> > I want to be able to use two help files.
>
> I think it is not a big issue. In Makefile we can
> : cat Conf.help.1 Conf.help2 > .Conf.help
Sounds better than dealing with two different help files in the
config system.
Is there an ETA when ESR CML2 will be in the official kernel?
(I guess I should catch up on what it will provide instead of
wasting peoples time...)
Would adding support for merging help files in the current config
system be accepted in the meanwhile?
E.g. Configure, Menuconfig and header.tk is changed to use
Documentation/Configure.help.generated
and the top Makefile does
cat $(HELPFILES) >Documentation/Configure.help.generated 2>/dev/null
for oldconfig, config, menuconfig and xconfig targets?
And HELPFILES is set to:
HELPFILES = arch/$(ARCH)/Configure.help Documentation/Configure.help
External patches that add functionality could easaly add
HELPFILES += some new help files
rows to get the help as well.
> giacomo
/Johan
Hi,
I try to compile kernel downloaded from
ftp.kernel.org.
I have all programs that this kernel require.
But I can't compile kernel :(
Ooops, can't compile kernel modules:
[...]
make[3]: Opuszczam katalog `/users/cieciwa/rpm/BUILD/linux/drivers/media/radio'
make -C video modules
make[3]: Wchodz? katalog `/users/cieciwa/rpm/BUILD/linux/drivers/media/video'
ld -m elf_i386 -r -o bttv.o bttv-driver.o bttv-cards.o bttv-if.o
ld -m elf_i386 -r -o zoran.o zr36120.o zr36120_i2c.o zr36120_mem.o
gcc -D__KERNEL__ -I/users/cieciwa/rpm/BUILD/linux/include -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -O2 -fomit-frame-pointer -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -march=i686 -DMODULE -c -o buz.o buz.c
buz.c: In function `v4l_fbuffer_alloc':
buz.c:188: `KMALLOC_MAXSIZE' undeclared (first use in this function)
buz.c:188: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
buz.c:188: for each function it appears in.)
buz.c: In function `jpg_fbuffer_alloc':
buz.c:262: `KMALLOC_MAXSIZE' undeclared (first use in this function)
buz.c:256: warning: `alloc_contig' might be used uninitialized in this function
buz.c: In function `jpg_fbuffer_free':
buz.c:322: `KMALLOC_MAXSIZE' undeclared (first use in this function)
buz.c:316: warning: `alloc_contig' might be used uninitialized in this function
buz.c: In function `zoran_ioctl':
buz.c:2837: `KMALLOC_MAXSIZE' undeclared (first use in this function)
make[3]: *** [buz.o] B??d 1
make[3]: Opuszczam katalog `/users/cieciwa/rpm/BUILD/linux/drivers/media/video'
make[2]: *** [_modsubdir_video] B??d 2
make[2]: Opuszczam katalog `/users/cieciwa/rpm/BUILD/linux/drivers/media'
make[1]: *** [_modsubdir_media] B??d 2
make[1]: Opuszczam katalog `/users/cieciwa/rpm/BUILD/linux/drivers'
make: *** [_mod_drivers] B??d 2
What's wrong ??
Thanx.
Sas.
P.S.
Sorry for my "language".
--
{Wojciech 'Sas' Cieciwa} {Member of PLD Team }
{e-mail: [email protected], http://www2.zarz.agh.edu.pl/~cieciwa}
Johan Adolfsson wrote:
>
> > - IIRC there is only few ARCH specific configuration, thus we
> > don't
> > reduce the size of che Configure.help
> > Note that the arch/config.in have to much configuration item
> > (but they repeat in (nearly) all arch/config.in files, thus
> > you
> > should count only the really arch specific item.
>
> Here are some results:
> $ wc arch/cris/Configure.help
> 621 4424 28373 arch/cris/Configure.help
> $ wc Documentation/Configure.help
> 17480 121037 773694 Documentation/Configure.help
> $ grep CONFIG arch/cris/Configure.help |wc
> 75 138 2337
> $ grep CONFIG Documentation/Configure.help |wc
> 1486 1640 30135
>
> it's not entiraly correct since the CONFIG_BLUETOOTH help
> is in the arch/cris directory and that should probably be in
> Documentation/ or in the OpenBT package and merged from there.
> The file also contains the # LocalWords: rows from the original
> Configure.help.
>
> But the ETRAX/CRIS config is 3-5% of the total config.
This seem too much. If all arch have a so big CONFIG space, I
think that your idea can do some improvement.
But: user don't see the difference. Do you think that
developers
would like your proposal? (If arch maintainers agree, you can
try to publish your patch)
>
> Having the help close to the config sounds like a good idea
> from a maintenance point of view.
But in 2.5.x the config.in are centralized, thus also
Configure.help sould be centralized.
And in this case I think that a big file hurts nobody.
> > > > ESR CML2 have the defualt path for Configure.help build in
> > > > the rules files, but it can be overriden by command options
> > > > to use an other Configure.help (the format do not change).
> > >
> > > I want to be able to use two help files.
> >
> > I think it is not a big issue. In Makefile we can
> > : cat Conf.help.1 Conf.help2 > .Conf.help
>
> Sounds better than dealing with two different help files in the
> config system.
> Is there an ETA when ESR CML2 will be in the official kernel?
> (I guess I should catch up on what it will provide instead of
> wasting peoples time...)
In 2.5.2 kernel. What We don't know is when 2.5.2 will be
released!
>
> Would adding support for merging help files in the current config
> system be accepted in the meanwhile?
In 2.4: No. Distribution expect a stable interface.
In 2.5 will be the new CML2.
Again if arch maintainer agree with your proposal, you can
change
the CML2. Not so difficult (and you change only in one place
for all interfaces (olconfig/config/menuconfig/xconfig)
> E.g. Configure, Menuconfig and header.tk is changed to use
> Documentation/Configure.help.generated
> and the top Makefile does
> cat $(HELPFILES) >Documentation/Configure.help.generated 2>/dev/null
> for oldconfig, config, menuconfig and xconfig targets?
> And HELPFILES is set to:
> HELPFILES = arch/$(ARCH)/Configure.help Documentation/Configure.help
>
> External patches that add functionality could easaly add
> HELPFILES += some new help files
> rows to get the help as well.
This change is too big for 2.4 kernel.
giacomo
"Giacomo Catenazzi wrote:"
> Johan Adolfsson wrote:
> >
> > Having the help close to the config sounds like a good idea
> > from a maintenance point of view.
>
> But in 2.5.x the config.in are centralized, thus also
> Configure.help sould be centralized.
> And in this case I think that a big file hurts nobody.
What about common config options (like CONFIG_PCI, CONFIG_BINFMT_ELF,
CONFIG_SMP, CONFIG_SERIAL), which have Configure.help entries wtitten in
PC-centric style?
What is info about ISA/EISA bus for sparc users for? Why no info about SBUS
there?
What is COM3 for Amiga user?
How can alpha user compile kernel for Pentium?
What is the difference between ELF and A.OUT for architectures that do not
support a.out at all?
IMO some, even very standard, options may need different explanations for
different architectures.
Maybe some kind of architecture-specyfic #include in Configure.help entries?
Just my 0.03 PLZ
Andrzej
Andrzej Krzysztofowicz wrote:
>
> "Giacomo Catenazzi wrote:"
> > Johan Adolfsson wrote:
> > >
> > > Having the help close to the config sounds like a good idea
> > > from a maintenance point of view.
> >
> > But in 2.5.x the config.in are centralized, thus also
> > Configure.help sould be centralized.
> > And in this case I think that a big file hurts nobody.
>
> What about common config options (like CONFIG_PCI, CONFIG_BINFMT_ELF,
> CONFIG_SMP, CONFIG_SERIAL), which have Configure.help entries wtitten in
> PC-centric style?
>
> What is info about ISA/EISA bus for sparc users for? Why no info about SBUS
> there?
> What is COM3 for Amiga user?
> How can alpha user compile kernel for Pentium?
> What is the difference between ELF and A.OUT for architectures that do not
> support a.out at all?
>
> IMO some, even very standard, options may need different explanations for
> different architectures.
>
> Maybe some kind of architecture-specyfic #include in Configure.help entries?
Two possibilities: With std configuration language change:
: bool 'std IPC support' CONFIG_IPC
into
: bool 'arch specific IPC help' CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
: define_bool CONFIG_IPC CONFIG_IPC_STRANGE_ARCH
This is "clean" and is allowed by CML1 (and in CML2 with a
similar change).
Or we can use the method of Johan.
But if we move some option in i386/Configure.help, users of
other arch
instead of being little confused, their will see no help ->
worse!
Maybe before to make changes, all developers should read the
documentation
and update/change it in a non i386 centric view.
BTW some other arch will use i386 devices, thus or we
duplicate (and
that one of the copy will be old) some entry of we must make
configure.help
i386 centric (and provide other help for other arch). But
SPARC and SPARC64
will use some configuration (different to i386), thus we
should duplicate
half configuration in SPARC.. ?
giacomo