Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Linux Kernel Mailing List wrote:
> > ChangeSet 1.2231.1.122, 2005/03/28 19:50:29-08:00, [email protected]
> >
> > [PATCH] s390: claw network device driver
> >
> > Add support for claw network devices.
> >
> > Signed-off-by: Martin Schwidefsky <[email protected]>
> > Signed-off-by: Andrew Morton <[email protected]>
> > Signed-off-by: Linus Torvalds <[email protected]>
>
> Grumpity grump grump grump. How tough is it to send new net drivers to
> netdev and me for review?
Was cc'ed to linux-net last Thursday, but it looks like the messages was
too large and the vger server munched it.
Andrew Morton wrote:
> Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > Was cc'ed to linux-net last Thursday, but it looks like the messages was
>> > too large and the vger server munched it.
>>
>> This also brings up a larger question... why was a completely unreviewed
>> net driver merged?
>
>
> Because nobody noticed that it didn't make it to the mailing list,
> obviously.
That's ducking the question. Let me rephrase.
Why was a complete lack of response judged to be an ACK?
For new drivers, that's a -horrible- precedent. You are quite skilled
at poking random hackers :) why not poke somebody to ack a new drivers?
It's not like this driver (or many of the other new drivers)
desperately need to get into the kernel ASAP, so desperate that a lack
of review was OK.
Jeff
On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 11:08:30PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Linux Kernel Mailing List wrote:
> > > ChangeSet 1.2231.1.122, 2005/03/28 19:50:29-08:00, [email protected]
> > >
> > > [PATCH] s390: claw network device driver
> > >
> > > Add support for claw network devices.
> > >
> > > Signed-off-by: Martin Schwidefsky <[email protected]>
> > > Signed-off-by: Andrew Morton <[email protected]>
> > > Signed-off-by: Linus Torvalds <[email protected]>
> >
> > Grumpity grump grump grump. How tough is it to send new net drivers to
> > netdev and me for review?
>
> Was cc'ed to linux-net last Thursday, but it looks like the messages was
> too large and the vger server munched it.
As mentioned in the email, you want netdev, not linux-net...
Jeff
On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 11:08:30PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Linux Kernel Mailing List wrote:
> > > ChangeSet 1.2231.1.122, 2005/03/28 19:50:29-08:00, [email protected]
> > >
> > > [PATCH] s390: claw network device driver
> > >
> > > Add support for claw network devices.
> > >
> > > Signed-off-by: Martin Schwidefsky <[email protected]>
> > > Signed-off-by: Andrew Morton <[email protected]>
> > > Signed-off-by: Linus Torvalds <[email protected]>
> >
> > Grumpity grump grump grump. How tough is it to send new net drivers to
> > netdev and me for review?
>
> Was cc'ed to linux-net last Thursday, but it looks like the messages was
> too large and the vger server munched it.
This also brings up a larger question... why was a completely unreviewed
net driver merged?
Jeff
Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Andrew Morton wrote:
> > Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> > Was cc'ed to linux-net last Thursday, but it looks like the messages was
> >> > too large and the vger server munched it.
> >>
> >> This also brings up a larger question... why was a completely unreviewed
> >> net driver merged?
> >
> >
> > Because nobody noticed that it didn't make it to the mailing list,
> > obviously.
>
> That's ducking the question. Let me rephrase.
>
> Why was a complete lack of response judged to be an ACK?
That's not uncommon. I don't ask people "are you reading the mailing list
which you should be reading" unless I think it's someone who doesn't read
the mailing lists which they should be reading.
> For new drivers, that's a -horrible- precedent. You are quite skilled
> at poking random hackers :) why not poke somebody to ack a new drivers?
In this case I didn't think about it very hard, sorry - figured it was s390
stuff and it hence falls under the "if it breaks, it's the s390 team's
problem" exemption.
> It's not like this driver (or many of the other new drivers)
> desperately need to get into the kernel ASAP, so desperate that a lack
> of review was OK.
True. But it's not as if we can't fix stuff up after it's merged up. The
reasons for holding off on a merge would be:
a) We're not sure that the feature should be merged at all
b) Holding off on a merge is a tool we use to motivate the submitter to
fix the code up
c) The merge breaks existing stuff.
I don't think any of those things apply here. The only downside is the
increased bk patch volume.
That being said, if there had been review comments I would have delayed the
merge.
Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Was cc'ed to linux-net last Thursday, but it looks like the messages was
> > too large and the vger server munched it.
>
> This also brings up a larger question... why was a completely unreviewed
> net driver merged?
Because nobody noticed that it didn't make it to the mailing list,
obviously.
On Tue, 29 March 2005 02:10:02 -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>
> As mentioned in the email, you want netdev, not linux-net...
Just out of curiosity: why are there two mailing lists? Especially if
one of them is the Wrong One.
J?rn
--
The competent programmer is fully aware of the strictly limited size of
his own skull; therefore he approaches the programming task in full
humility, and among other things he avoids clever tricks like the plague.
-- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Andrew Morton wrote:
> Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Andrew Morton wrote:
>>
>>>Jeff Garzik <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Was cc'ed to linux-net last Thursday, but it looks like the messages was
>>>>>too large and the vger server munched it.
>>>>
>>>>This also brings up a larger question... why was a completely unreviewed
>>>>net driver merged?
>>>
>>>
>>>Because nobody noticed that it didn't make it to the mailing list,
>>>obviously.
>>
>>That's ducking the question. Let me rephrase.
>>
>>Why was a complete lack of response judged to be an ACK?
>
>
> That's not uncommon. I don't ask people "are you reading the mailing list
> which you should be reading" unless I think it's someone who doesn't read
> the mailing lists which they should be reading.
>
>
>>For new drivers, that's a -horrible- precedent. You are quite skilled
>>at poking random hackers :) why not poke somebody to ack a new drivers?
>
>
> In this case I didn't think about it very hard, sorry - figured it was s390
> stuff and it hence falls under the "if it breaks, it's the s390 team's
> problem" exemption.
Yeah, and I -am- sympathetic to that sort of thing. I just feel really
strongly that we need to have a higher-than-normal barrier for new code.
It may be an S/390 driver, but Jeff's Law of Bad Code states "where
there is bad code, it will be copied." Propagating the 2.2.x-era
'tbusy' flag to yet more drivers is something I absolutely do not want
to happen.
I also feel that we have shifted from a "Linus doesn't scale" problem to
an "akpm doesn't scale" problem. As much work as you put it (lots!),
you can't possibly be expected to review all the new drivers and such.
I would prefer a "new driver must be acked by at least one non-author"
rule. We need -some- barrier to entry. If that rule is OK with others,
I'm quite willing to do that for my areas like libata.
>> It's not like this driver (or many of the other new drivers)
>>desperately need to get into the kernel ASAP, so desperate that a lack
>>of review was OK.
>
>
> True. But it's not as if we can't fix stuff up after it's merged up. The
> reasons for holding off on a merge would be:
>
> a) We're not sure that the feature should be merged at all
>
> b) Holding off on a merge is a tool we use to motivate the submitter to
> fix the code up
>
> c) The merge breaks existing stuff.
>
> I don't think any of those things apply here. The only downside is the
> increased bk patch volume.
In general, I have supported your philosophy of accelerated upstreaming
of code. I just worry about going too far, and this driver was a
case-in-point.
As Linus and others have pointed out many times in the past, there is no
harm in -not- upstreaming code until it is "ready." Our current system
of maintainers/lieutenants is sufficiently distributed as to allow this.
Jeff
J?rn Engel wrote:
> On Tue, 29 March 2005 02:10:02 -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>
>>As mentioned in the email, you want netdev, not linux-net...
>
>
> Just out of curiosity: why are there two mailing lists? Especially if
> one of them is the Wrong One.
<shrug>
linux-net is mostly dead. I get the impression it is occasionally used
by users.
netdev (as, perhaps, the name implies) is where the network developers
hang out.
Jeff
On Tue, 29 March 2005 15:06:04 -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> J?rn Engel wrote:
> >
> >Just out of curiosity: why are there two mailing lists? Especially if
> >one of them is the Wrong One.
>
> <shrug>
>
> linux-net is mostly dead. I get the impression it is occasionally used
> by users.
>
> netdev (as, perhaps, the name implies) is where the network developers
> hang out.
Ok, I figured as much. But then, why is linux-net not just deleted?
Bouncing mails would be an indication that noone will read them,
right?
J?rn
--
There's nothing better for promoting creativity in a medium than
making an audience feel "Hmm ? I could do better than that!"
-- Douglas Adams in a slashdot interview
J?rn Engel wrote:
> On Tue, 29 March 2005 15:06:04 -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>
>>J?rn Engel wrote:
>>
>>>Just out of curiosity: why are there two mailing lists? Especially if
>>>one of them is the Wrong One.
>>
>><shrug>
>>
>>linux-net is mostly dead. I get the impression it is occasionally used
>>by users.
>>
>>netdev (as, perhaps, the name implies) is where the network developers
>>hang out.
>
>
> Ok, I figured as much. But then, why is linux-net not just deleted?
> Bouncing mails would be an indication that noone will read them,
> right?
<shrug> It doesn't matter that much to me. If you want to undertake
the removal of linux-net as your personal mission, I won't stop you :)
Jeff
On Tue, 29 March 2005 17:44:33 -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>
> <shrug> It doesn't matter that much to me. If you want to undertake
> the removal of linux-net as your personal mission, I won't stop you :)
At least it weakens your position when you state "Random newbie John
Doe failed to pick the correct list, so I never saw his requests for
review."
And yes, I'd like to see linux-net either used, removed or simply
forwarded to netdev.
J?rn
--
Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent.
-- Sun Tzu
Hi!
> >>As mentioned in the email, you want netdev, not linux-net...
> >
> >
> >Just out of curiosity: why are there two mailing lists? Especially if
> >one of them is the Wrong One.
>
> <shrug>
>
> linux-net is mostly dead. I get the impression it is occasionally used
> by users.
>
> netdev (as, perhaps, the name implies) is where the network developers
> hang out.
Eh...
pavel@Elf:~/bin$ grep linux-net /usr/src/linux/MAINTAINERS
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
pavel@Elf:~/bin$
More importantly, it is still listed as "the list" for network
drivers...
NETWORK DEVICE DRIVERS
P: Andrew Morton
M: [email protected]
P: Jeff Garzik
M: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
NETWORKING [GENERAL]
P: Networking Team
M: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
Pavel
--
Boycott Kodak -- for their patent abuse against Java.
On Fri, 8 April 2005 22:16:07 +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
>
> More importantly, it is still listed as "the list" for network
> drivers...
>
> NETWORK DEVICE DRIVERS
> P: Andrew Morton
> M: [email protected]
> P: Jeff Garzik
> M: [email protected]
> L: [email protected]
> S: Maintained
Maybe one of the two maintainers might want to change that? ;)
J?rn
--
There are two ways of constructing a software design: one way is to make
it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other is
to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies.
-- C. A. R. Hoare
On Sat, Apr 09, 2005 at 03:52:05PM +0200, J?rn Engel wrote:
> On Fri, 8 April 2005 22:16:07 +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> >
> > More importantly, it is still listed as "the list" for network
> > drivers...
> >
> > NETWORK DEVICE DRIVERS
> > P: Andrew Morton
> > M: [email protected]
> > P: Jeff Garzik
> > M: [email protected]
> > L: [email protected]
> > S: Maintained
>
> Maybe one of the two maintainers might want to change that? ;)
Use netdev as the mailing list contact instead of the mostly dead
linux-net list.
Signed-off-by: Horms <[email protected]>
===== MAINTAINERS 1.295 vs edited =====
--- 1.295/MAINTAINERS 2005-04-04 06:20:11 +09:00
+++ edited/MAINTAINERS 2005-04-12 15:11:38 +09:00
@@ -73,7 +73,7 @@
3C359 NETWORK DRIVER
P: Mike Phillips
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
W: http://www.linuxtr.net
S: Maintained
@@ -81,13 +81,13 @@
3C505 NETWORK DRIVER
P: Philip Blundell
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
3CR990 NETWORK DRIVER
P: David Dillow
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
3W-XXXX ATA-RAID CONTROLLER DRIVER
@@ -143,7 +143,7 @@
8390 NETWORK DRIVERS [WD80x3/SMC-ELITE, SMC-ULTRA, NE2000, 3C503, etc.]
P: Paul Gortmaker
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
A2232 SERIAL BOARD DRIVER
@@ -334,7 +334,7 @@
ARPD SUPPORT
P: Jonathan Layes
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
ASUS ACPI EXTRAS DRIVER
@@ -708,7 +708,7 @@
DIGI RIGHTSWITCH NETWORK DRIVER
P: Rick Richardson
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
W: http://www.digi.com
S: Orphaned
@@ -814,7 +814,7 @@
ETHEREXPRESS-16 NETWORK DRIVER
P: Philip Blundell
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
ETHERNET BRIDGE
@@ -877,7 +877,7 @@
FRAME RELAY DLCI/FRAD (Sangoma drivers too)
P: Mike McLagan
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
FREEVXFS FILESYSTEM
@@ -1217,7 +1217,7 @@
IPX NETWORK LAYER
P: Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
IRDA SUBSYSTEM
@@ -1594,13 +1594,13 @@
M: [email protected]
P: Jeff Garzik
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
NETWORKING [GENERAL]
P: Networking Team
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
NETWORKING [IPv4/IPv6]
@@ -1636,7 +1636,7 @@
P: Jan-Pascal van Best and Andreas Mohr
M: Jan-Pascal van Best <[email protected]>
M: Andreas Mohr <[email protected]>
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
NINJA SCSI-3 / NINJA SCSI-32Bi (16bit/CardBus) PCMCIA SCSI HOST ADAPTER DRIVER
@@ -1678,7 +1678,7 @@
M: [email protected]
P: Mike Phillips
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
W: http://www.linuxtr.net
S: Maintained
@@ -1783,7 +1783,7 @@
PCNET32 NETWORK DRIVER
P: Thomas Bogend?rfer
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
PHRAM MTD DRIVER
@@ -1795,7 +1795,7 @@
POSIX CLOCKS and TIMERS
P: George Anzinger
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Supported
PNP SUPPORT
@@ -2042,7 +2042,7 @@
P: Daniele Venzano
M: [email protected]
W: http://www.brownhat.org/sis900.html
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
SIS FRAMEBUFFER DRIVER
@@ -2101,7 +2101,7 @@
SONIC NETWORK DRIVER
P: Thomas Bogendoerfer
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Maintained
SONY VAIO CONTROL DEVICE DRIVER
@@ -2151,7 +2151,7 @@
SPX NETWORK LAYER
P: Jay Schulist
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Supported
SRM (Alpha) environment access
@@ -2230,7 +2230,7 @@
TOKEN-RING NETWORK DRIVER
P: Mike Phillips
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
L: [email protected]
W: http://www.linuxtr.net
S: Maintained
Horms wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 09, 2005 at 03:52:05PM +0200, J?rn Engel wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 8 April 2005 22:16:07 +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>
>>>More importantly, it is still listed as "the list" for network
>>>drivers...
>>>
>>>NETWORK DEVICE DRIVERS
>>>P: Andrew Morton
>>>M: [email protected]
>>>P: Jeff Garzik
>>>M: [email protected]
>>>L: [email protected]
>>>S: Maintained
>>
>>Maybe one of the two maintainers might want to change that? ;)
>
>
> Use netdev as the mailing list contact instead of the mostly dead
> linux-net list.
>
~
> PHRAM MTD DRIVER
> @@ -1795,7 +1795,7 @@
> POSIX CLOCKS and TIMERS
> P: George Anzinger
> M: [email protected]
> -L: [email protected]
> +L: [email protected]
> S: Supported
>
I don't really know about the rest of them, but I think this should be:
L: [email protected]
Least wise that is where I look...
~
--
George Anzinger [email protected]
High-res-timers: http://sourceforge.net/projects/high-res-timers/
On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 12:14:56PM -0700, George Anzinger wrote:
> Horms wrote:
> >
> >Use netdev as the mailing list contact instead of the mostly dead
> >linux-net list.
> >
> ~
> > PHRAM MTD DRIVER
> >@@ -1795,7 +1795,7 @@
> > POSIX CLOCKS and TIMERS
> > P: George Anzinger
> > M: [email protected]
> >-L: [email protected]
> >+L: [email protected]
> > S: Supported
> >
> I don't really know about the rest of them, but I think this should be:
> L: [email protected]
>
> Least wise that is where I look...
Yes, I was wondering about that one. Here is a patch that
adds to my previous patch. Trivial to say the least.
I can re-diff the whole thing if that is more convenient.
--
Horms
POSIX CLOCKS and TIMERS disscussion is more appropriate
on linux-kernel than linux-net. As suggested by the maintainer,
George Anzinger.
Signed-off-by: Horms <[email protected]>
--- a/MAINTAINERS 2005-04-13 11:06:39.000000000 +0900
+++ b/MAINTAINERS 2005-04-13 11:07:04.000000000 +0900
@@ -1795,7 +1795,7 @@
POSIX CLOCKS and TIMERS
P: George Anzinger
M: [email protected]
-L: [email protected]
+L: [email protected]
S: Supported
PNP SUPPORT
Horms wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 12:14:56PM -0700, George Anzinger wrote:
>
>>Horms wrote:
>>
>>>Use netdev as the mailing list contact instead of the mostly dead
>>>linux-net list.
>>>
>>
>>~
>>
>>>PHRAM MTD DRIVER
>>>@@ -1795,7 +1795,7 @@
>>>POSIX CLOCKS and TIMERS
>>>P: George Anzinger
>>>M: [email protected]
>>>-L: [email protected]
>>>+L: [email protected]
>>>S: Supported
>>>
>>
>>I don't really know about the rest of them, but I think this should be:
>>L: [email protected]
>>
>>Least wise that is where I look...
>
>
> Yes, I was wondering about that one. Here is a patch that
> adds to my previous patch. Trivial to say the least.
> I can re-diff the whole thing if that is more convenient.
Looks good to me.
>
--
George Anzinger [email protected]
High-res-timers: http://sourceforge.net/projects/high-res-timers/