Hi Matthias :)
>Creating a dependency on Python? Is a non-issue.
Maybe for you. For me it *is* an issue. I don't like more and
more dependencies for the kernel. I mean, if I can drop kbuild and
keep on building the kernel with the old good 'make config' I won't
worry, but otherwise I don't think that kernel building depends on
something like Python.
Why must I install Python in order to compile the kernel? I don't
understand this. I think there are better alternatives, but kbuild
seems to be imposed any way.
>You don't make the pen yourself when writing a letter either.
I don't like to be forced in a particular pen, that's the reason
why I use and develop for linux.
>What are the precise issues with Python? Just claiming it is an
>issue is not useful for discussing this. Archive pointers are
>welcome.
Well, let's start writing kernel drivers with Python, Perl, PHP,
awk, etc... And, why not, C++, Ada, Modula, etc...
The kernel should depend just on the compiler and assembler, IMHO.
Ra?l
On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:08:57PM +0100, Ra?l N??ez de Arenas Coronado wrote:
> Hi Matthias :)
>
> >Creating a dependency on Python? Is a non-issue.
>
> Maybe for you. For me it *is* an issue. I don't like more and
> more dependencies for the kernel. I mean, if I can drop kbuild and
> keep on building the kernel with the old good 'make config' I won't
> worry, but otherwise I don't think that kernel building depends on
> something like Python.
One of the things that I _think_ is happening is that lots of other
scripts/ files are being redone, and thus removing them from the list,
so in effect we're trading out one or two for just Python.
> Why must I install Python in order to compile the kernel? I don't
> understand this. I think there are better alternatives, but kbuild
> seems to be imposed any way.
kbuild != CML2. It all boils down to the current 'language' having no
real definitive spec, and having 3+ incompatible parsers. We could
either try and tweak the language slightly (and probably make it even
harder on external parsers) or throw it out and try again. ESR wrote
CML2 with a Python interpreter, so it uses Python. The spec for CML2 is
out there, and there's even a CML2-in-C project. If you don't want to
use Python, go help (I believe Greg Banks is who ESR mentioned is in
charge of it) that project out and then convince Linus to include it.
> >You don't make the pen yourself when writing a letter either.
>
> I don't like to be forced in a particular pen, that's the reason
> why I use and develop for linux.
To carry this analogy out a bit more, the details on how to make a pen
exist, so if you don't like ESRs pen, go make your own. That's why a
lot of people use Linux too.
> >What are the precise issues with Python? Just claiming it is an
> >issue is not useful for discussing this. Archive pointers are
> >welcome.
>
> Well, let's start writing kernel drivers with Python, Perl, PHP,
> awk, etc... And, why not, C++, Ada, Modula, etc...
>
> The kernel should depend just on the compiler and assembler, IMHO.
The right tools for the right job. C is good for the kernel. Python is
good at manipulating strings.
--
Tom Rini (TR1265)
http://gate.crashing.org/~trini/
On Tuesdayen den 4 December 2001 18.08, Ra?lN??ez de Arenas Coronado wrote:
> Hi Matthias :)
>
> >Creating a dependency on Python? Is a non-issue.
>
> Maybe for you. For me it *is* an issue. I don't like more and
> more dependencies for the kernel. I mean, if I can drop kbuild and
> keep on building the kernel with the old good 'make config' I won't
> worry, but otherwise I don't think that kernel building depends on
> something like Python.
>
> Why must I install Python in order to compile the kernel? I don't
> understand this. I think there are better alternatives, but kbuild
> seems to be imposed any way.
>
> >You don't make the pen yourself when writing a letter either.
>
> I don't like to be forced in a particular pen, that's the reason
> why I use and develop for linux.
>
> >What are the precise issues with Python? Just claiming it is an
> >issue is not useful for discussing this. Archive pointers are
> >welcome.
>
> Well, let's start writing kernel drivers with Python, Perl, PHP,
> awk, etc... And, why not, C++, Ada, Modula, etc...
>
> The kernel should depend just on the compiler and assembler, IMHO.
And you'll select and pass every .c file directly to the compiler via the
command line ?? Sounds like a giant step forwards !!
On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:08:57PM +0100, Ra?lN??ez de Arenas Coronado wrote:
> Hi Matthias :)
>
> >Creating a dependency on Python? Is a non-issue.
>
> Maybe for you. For me it *is* an issue. I don't like more and
> more dependencies for the kernel. I mean, if I can drop kbuild and
> keep on building the kernel with the old good 'make config' I won't
> worry, but otherwise I don't think that kernel building depends on
> something like Python.
>
> Why must I install Python in order to compile the kernel? I don't
> understand this. I think there are better alternatives, but kbuild
> seems to be imposed any way.
>
> >You don't make the pen yourself when writing a letter either.
>
> I don't like to be forced in a particular pen, that's the reason
> why I use and develop for linux.
>
> >What are the precise issues with Python? Just claiming it is an
> >issue is not useful for discussing this. Archive pointers are
> >welcome.
>
> Well, let's start writing kernel drivers with Python, Perl, PHP,
> awk, etc... And, why not, C++, Ada, Modula, etc...
Noone's suggested writing kernel-drivers in anything but a combination
of C and assembler (with as little asm as possible), apart from some
heretics that suggested usage of C++ in the kernel...
This only involves usage of Python2 for configuring your kernel.
> The kernel should depend just on the compiler and assembler, IMHO.
Yeah, let's lose the dependencies on perl, make, awk, sed, ld, ar,
nm, strip, objcopy, objdump, depmod, grep, xargs, find, gzip,
wish, tcl/tk and possibly others. That'd surely shave a lot of diskspace
off my buildsystem. It's not like I use any of them for anything else...
Hey, lets lose C and ASM too, and create all your binaries by
writing hexvalues into a file.
/David Weinehall
_ _
// David Weinehall <[email protected]> /> Northern lights wander \\
// Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky //
\> http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/ </ Full colour fire </
Tom Rini <[email protected]>:
> > Maybe for you. For me it *is* an issue. I don't like more and
> > more dependencies for the kernel. I mean, if I can drop kbuild and
> > keep on building the kernel with the old good 'make config' I won't
> > worry, but otherwise I don't think that kernel building depends on
> > something like Python.
>
> One of the things that I _think_ is happening is that lots of other
> scripts/ files are being redone, and thus removing them from the list,
> so in effect we're trading out one or two for just Python.
That is my intention.
> The right tools for the right job. C is good for the kernel. Python is
> good at manipulating strings.
*Perl* is good at strings. Python is good at actual data structures :-).
--
<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their
possession any swords, short swords, bows, spears, firearms, or other types
of arms. The possession of unnecessary implements makes difficult the
collection of taxes and dues and tends to foment uprisings.
-- Toyotomi Hideyoshi, dictator of Japan, August 1588
David Weinehall <[email protected]>:
> Yeah, let's lose the dependencies on perl, make, awk, sed, ld, ar,
> nm, strip, objcopy, objdump, depmod, grep, xargs, find, gzip,
> wish, tcl/tk and possibly others. That'd surely shave a lot of diskspace
> off my buildsystem. It's not like I use any of them for anything else...
I'm going to remove a few of these.
--
<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle
for independence. -- Attributed to Charles Austin Beard (1874-1948)
On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:43:20PM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> David Weinehall <[email protected]>:
> > Yeah, let's lose the dependencies on perl, make, awk, sed, ld, ar,
> > nm, strip, objcopy, objdump, depmod, grep, xargs, find, gzip,
> > wish, tcl/tk and possibly others. That'd surely shave a lot of diskspace
> > off my buildsystem. It's not like I use any of them for anything else...
>
> I'm going to remove a few of these.
You know, I _was_ ironic about not needing most of those...
/David
_ _
// David Weinehall <[email protected]> /> Northern lights wander \\
// Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky //
\> http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/ </ Full colour fire </
On Tue, 04 Dec 2001, Ra?lN??ez de Arenas Coronado wrote:
> Why must I install Python in order to compile the kernel? I don't
> understand this. I think there are better alternatives, but kbuild
> seems to be imposed any way.
Because the Gods of the Kernel command so, simply put. I fail to see the
mutual implications of kbuild and CML2 however. I have until now seen
these as separate (independent of each other) efforts which are both
proposed for early 2.5.x inclusion.
> >What are the precise issues with Python? Just claiming it is an
> >issue is not useful for discussing this. Archive pointers are
> >welcome.
>
> Well, let's start writing kernel drivers with Python, Perl, PHP,
> awk, etc... And, why not, C++, Ada, Modula, etc...
Please don't mix the "layers" here. You don't need Python to run the
kernel.
> The kernel should depend just on the compiler and assembler, IMHO.
less Documentation/Changes
/Current Minimal Requirements -- that's for running, BTW, not for
compiling. Oops.
--
Matthias Andree
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
[Cc: list trimmed]
Tom Rini wrote:
>
> [... The spec for CML2 is
> out there, and there's even a CML2-in-C project. If you don't want to
> use Python, go help (I believe Greg Banks is who ESR mentioned is in
> charge of it) that project out [...]
In charge of it? I *am* it. At least, I was it; I haven't done much
on it for a few months. I got bogged down trying to reproduce Eric's symbol
freezing semantics with my undoable data structure, and then other things
came up. Besides the whole Python issue seemed to have died down.
The latest (unreleased) code has GTK and curses GUIs (the curses GUI reuses
the CML1 dialog code so it looks very much like CML1 "make menuconfig"), but
is several months behind tracking CML2 language changes.
If people are interested in contributing, I'd be happy to put the project
on sourceforge. But judging by the download counter for the last release at
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~gnb/gcml2/
nobody really cares ;-) It seems my main contribution has been to provide
Eric with incentive to clarify his language spec and speed up his parser.
Greg.
--
the price of civilisation today is a courageous willingness to prevail,
with force, if necessary, against whatever vicious and uncomprehending
enemies try to strike it down. - Roger Sandall, The Age, 28Sep2001.
Greg Banks <[email protected]>:
> It seems my main contribution has been to provide
> Eric with incentive to clarify his language spec and speed up his parser.
Stimulus for which I have been deeply grateful.
--
<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
..every Man has a Property in his own Person. This no Body has any
Right to but himself. The Labour of his Body, and the Work of his
Hands, we may say, are properly his. .... The great and chief end
therefore, of Mens uniting into Commonwealths, and putting themselves
under Government, is the Preservation of their Property.
-- John Locke, "A Treatise Concerning Civil Government"
At 07:46 PM 12/4/2001 +0100, David Weinehall wrote:
>Yeah, let's lose the dependencies on perl, make, awk, sed, ld, ar,
>nm, strip, objcopy, objdump, depmod, grep, xargs, find, gzip,
>wish, tcl/tk and possibly others. That'd surely shave a lot of diskspace
>off my buildsystem. It's not like I use any of them for anything else...
>
>Hey, lets lose C and ASM too, and create all your binaries by
>writing hexvalues into a file.
Real kernel hackers use
# cat > /vmlinuz; lilo; shutdown -r now
--
Stevie-O
Real programmers use COPY CON PROGRAM.EXE