Version 0.10 of bluez-gnome added support for "browsing devices" - a
much needed feature by any account. What I'm not thrilled about is
that it was written to support gnome-vfs-obexftp.
Don't get me wrong - gnome-vfs-obexftp is awesome, but
bluetooth-applet is the wrong entry point for it. The applet should
allow you to see what devices are around you and allow you to initiate
a bonding with them but the assumption that you want to browse OBEX is
bad.
Another problem with this approach is that it creates a dependency on
gnome-vfs-obexftp and assumes that it's present. If it's desirable to
have the applet launch other programs it should support more than
obex:// and there should be some generic mechanism for programs to
plug themselves in as handling a given service. It should be possible
some day to get a bluetooth mouse working from the GUI, or a bluetooth
headset, for example.
Of course there needs to be better integration of gnome-vfs-obexftp,
but that integration should be in nautilus where everything else
vfs-related is found. A bluetooth link under computer:/// when an
adapter is present would be sufficient (though I wish we'd treat OBEX
more generically as well - it's got 3 or 4 transports besides
bluetooth).
Other thoughts?
Andrew Jorgensen
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On 8/11/07, Marcel Holtmann <[email protected]> wrote:
> actually once we add the "Setup new device" menu entry to that menu then
> it should become more clearer. This then will call the wizard.
This will be good. Thanks!
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Hi,
> Currently i want to test bluetooth dongle for my development
> board DBAu1200 i ported linux-2.6.11 kernel and enabled the required
> bluetooth services and usb bluetooth driver .To test it i cross
> compiled the bluez-libs-2.25 and bluez-utils-2.25 for MIPS
> architecture and for cross compilation i followed the following
> documentation from uclinux please see the following link
> docs.blackfin.uclinux.org/doku.php?id=blutooth_on_usb in that instead
> of bfin-uclinux i used mipsel and for CPPFLAGS="-D__KERNEL" it
> compiled successfully and i ported all the files under install
> folder,when i tried to execute from board following was the error
> message,
don't steal threads and ask unrelated stuff. This is rude behavior on a
public mailing list.
Regards
Marcel
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Hi Andrew,
> > I'm trying to help Ubuntu's next release not have a prominent new
> > feature that doesn't work out of the box. They aren't including
> > gnome-vfs-obexftp by default in gutsy (maybe they'll change their
> > mind?) so it looks a bit ugly when you get an error message saying you
> > can't browse the thing bluetooth-applet says you can browse.
>
> Apparently there's already a bug open on Launchpad:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-gnome/+bug/131530
>
> The reporter there got the same impression I did - that the Browse
> device feature was intended to allow the user to pair or connect with
> a device. He also found it odd that only OBEX FTP was supported.
actually once we add the "Setup new device" menu entry to that menu then
it should become more clearer. This then will call the wizard.
The missing gnome-vfs-obexftp issue is because it is part of universe
and not Gutsy core. That is up to the Ubuntu guys to figure out. I think
the main problem might be that we don't have a Debian package for it. So
time for someone to maintain a gnome-vfs-obexftp Debian package and so
it will find its way into Ubuntu core.
Regards
Marcel
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Hi Andrew,
> First let me say, Marcel, that I didn't mean any personal offense to
> you. Please don't feel under-appreciated for all the good work you're
> putting into bluez-gnome. I'm glad to get a response from you.
don't worry, I am really bad when it comes to UI programming. I do
prefer kernel code.
> If you don't agree with anything else I say please at least consider
> this: The applet should not offer to browse an obex-ftp device unless
> gnome-vfs-obexftp is installed. It probably needs to be a run-time
> dependency so that distros that offer vfs-obexftp but not by default
> can expect the applet to work properly.
We had a patch for it. It was so ugly that I simply dropped it.
> I'm trying to help Ubuntu's next release not have a prominent new
> feature that doesn't work out of the box. They aren't including
> gnome-vfs-obexftp by default in gutsy (maybe they'll change their
> mind?) so it looks a bit ugly when you get an error message saying you
> can't browse the thing bluetooth-applet says you can browse.
I thought they gonna have it. I know that it has its bugs, but I don't
see any reason why it is not in there. Anyway you can patch it out of
the code if you really want to. It is only a few lines of code.
> > it is exactly the right entry point. You might wanna compare how MacOS X
> > handles it. The actual bonding will be done automatically. You are the
> > client and so we can rely on the actual FTP server to ask for a bonding
> > and not wasting time to try to pair a public FTP repository that has no
> > key anyway.
>
> Good point that the bonding should be / is done automatically. I
> still think the applet is the wrong place for OBEX though - mostly
> because I think nautilus /is/ the right place for it.
>
> MacOS X does it the wrong way IMHO. They treat their bluetooth ftp
> like a GUI ftp client rather than just another location in the Finder.
> Gnome is doing it better by having a vfs module to support it, and
> Maemo (Nokia N800 / 770, for which gnome-vfs-obexftp was written)
> takes it one step further in the right direction by showing you your
> device in the file manager if it's connected. It does this in much
> the way I proposed here. (Yes, I know that this isn't the right place
> to propose that change. Sorry about that.)
As I said, I don't care if someone actually starts integrating it much
deeper into GNOME. It won't be me since dealing with bluez-gnome and
getting that part right is hard enough.
> > It only supports Bluetooth FTP and is not meant to support everything.
> > So I have no idea what you are talking about. Use the preferences dialog
> > or the upcoming wizard to connect other type of Bluetooth devices.
>
> I have discussed this with James Henstridge a little and while he's
> not opposed to adding support for other transports to
> gnome-vfs-obexftp he would agree that the other transports are a lower
> priority. My main concern is that we'll hard-code obex = bluetooth
> everywhere so that if someone extends gnome-vfs-obexftp to support USB
> and other transports there won't be any place for it in gnome anyway.
I don't see a big problem here. It is only a matter of getting the URI
syntax right. You can easily differentiate between a USB device URI and
a Bluetooth address URI.
> I'd also love to see Edd Dumbill's gnome-obex-server and
> gnome-obex-send support other transports, particularly IrDA. In a
> perfect world it would also advertise itself via Avahi and support
> file push over TCP.
Check out the obex-data-server project from Google SoC. It will
initially only support Bluetooth, but that one can be easily extended to
support transports like TCP/IP.
> > We know that OBEX supports more than the Bluetooth transport, but which
> > of these transports actually have devices that support FTP like
> > transactions. Most of them only allow to push or pull a file. However
> > feel free to fix gnome-vfs-obexftp to make this work.
>
> Quite a lot of devices support OBEX FTP over USB - and USB is a lot
> faster and some more reliable than BT. Probably far fewer devices
> that use OBEX over IrDA support anything but PUSH. And there may in
> fact be no services or devices that do OBEX FTP over TCP, but the
> underlying library (openobex) and the commandline client (obexftp)
> support all of these.
Be my guest in addressing this. I only had a brief look at the
gnome-vfs-obexftp to make it use RFCOMM sockets directly and I didn't
even write the final patch. That's it. I am not involved in it.
> > If you wanna have the Bluetooth adapters (yes, plural. We can have more
> > than one) under computer:/// then go ahead a send patches upstream. I
> > personally don't care and I am not responsible for that part of
> > software.
>
> Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned what I thought could be done in
> other projects, that really has nothing to do with you.
The bluez-gnome project is open for everything, but some stuff that are
not tightly coupled should be better kept separate. Otherwise simply
send patches. We go from there.
> > As usual with these kind of things, I am not the UI expert and if you
> > wanna have fixed or changed something, you better send in a patch. We
> > always welcome new development blood.
>
> I'm not a UI expert either. I was just disappointed that the first
> gnome (non-cli) interface for connecting to a bluetooth device was
> really an interface to connect with an OBEX FTP device on a bluetooth
> transport. I plainly admit that I had false assumptions about what
> that feature was supposed to be and my disappointment is due primarily
> to those false assumptions. It sounds like the preferences dialog and
> the druid will cover my needs nicely.
Actually Bluetooth is so highly complicated that most of the times we
need at least three attempts to get it right. There is always something.
Even with our new infrastructure that uses solely D-Bus we are big step
into the right direction, but it is still way to complex for most people
to get it right. The D-Bus API is simply, but it still has its issues if
you start mis-using it. My hope is that a Bluetooth GTK widget library
will help people to develop Bluetooth enabled UI applications faster and
more easily since they don't have to worry about details.
> Also thank you for being welcoming to new developers. I need to dive
> into one of the projects I am interested in. I appreciate the idea
> that I'd be welcomed if I chose bluez-gnome.
Start fixing or extending stuff. I am simply the wrong person for
writing UI applications, but no one else wanting to write this passkey
agent support for GNOME. So here we are. Me writing UI code.
> May I ask, by the way, if bluez-users was the wrong place to bring this up?
I think it is fine. When you start sending patches, make sure they go to
bluez-devel.
Regards
Marcel
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On 8/10/07, Andrew Jorgensen <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm trying to help Ubuntu's next release not have a prominent new
> feature that doesn't work out of the box. They aren't including
> gnome-vfs-obexftp by default in gutsy (maybe they'll change their
> mind?) so it looks a bit ugly when you get an error message saying you
> can't browse the thing bluetooth-applet says you can browse.
Apparently there's already a bug open on Launchpad:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-gnome/+bug/131530
The reporter there got the same impression I did - that the Browse
device feature was intended to allow the user to pair or connect with
a device. He also found it odd that only OBEX FTP was supported.
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First let me say, Marcel, that I didn't mean any personal offense to
you. Please don't feel under-appreciated for all the good work you're
putting into bluez-gnome. I'm glad to get a response from you.
If you don't agree with anything else I say please at least consider
this: The applet should not offer to browse an obex-ftp device unless
gnome-vfs-obexftp is installed. It probably needs to be a run-time
dependency so that distros that offer vfs-obexftp but not by default
can expect the applet to work properly.
I'm trying to help Ubuntu's next release not have a prominent new
feature that doesn't work out of the box. They aren't including
gnome-vfs-obexftp by default in gutsy (maybe they'll change their
mind?) so it looks a bit ugly when you get an error message saying you
can't browse the thing bluetooth-applet says you can browse.
On 8/10/07, Marcel Holtmann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Don't get me wrong - gnome-vfs-obexftp is awesome, but
> > bluetooth-applet is the wrong entry point for it. The applet should
> > allow you to see what devices are around you and allow you to initiate
> > a bonding with them but the assumption that you want to browse OBEX is
> > bad.
>
> it is exactly the right entry point. You might wanna compare how MacOS X
> handles it. The actual bonding will be done automatically. You are the
> client and so we can rely on the actual FTP server to ask for a bonding
> and not wasting time to try to pair a public FTP repository that has no
> key anyway.
Good point that the bonding should be / is done automatically. I
still think the applet is the wrong place for OBEX though - mostly
because I think nautilus /is/ the right place for it.
MacOS X does it the wrong way IMHO. They treat their bluetooth ftp
like a GUI ftp client rather than just another location in the Finder.
Gnome is doing it better by having a vfs module to support it, and
Maemo (Nokia N800 / 770, for which gnome-vfs-obexftp was written)
takes it one step further in the right direction by showing you your
device in the file manager if it's connected. It does this in much
the way I proposed here. (Yes, I know that this isn't the right place
to propose that change. Sorry about that.)
> > Another problem with this approach is that it creates a dependency on
> > gnome-vfs-obexftp and assumes that it's present. If it's desirable to
> > have the applet launch other programs it should support more than
> > obex:// and there should be some generic mechanism for programs to
> > plug themselves in as handling a given service. It should be possible
> > some day to get a bluetooth mouse working from the GUI, or a bluetooth
> > headset, for example.
>
> It only supports Bluetooth FTP and is not meant to support everything.
> So I have no idea what you are talking about. Use the preferences dialog
> or the upcoming wizard to connect other type of Bluetooth devices.
I have discussed this with James Henstridge a little and while he's
not opposed to adding support for other transports to
gnome-vfs-obexftp he would agree that the other transports are a lower
priority. My main concern is that we'll hard-code obex = bluetooth
everywhere so that if someone extends gnome-vfs-obexftp to support USB
and other transports there won't be any place for it in gnome anyway.
I'd also love to see Edd Dumbill's gnome-obex-server and
gnome-obex-send support other transports, particularly IrDA. In a
perfect world it would also advertise itself via Avahi and support
file push over TCP.
> > Of course there needs to be better integration of gnome-vfs-obexftp,
> > but that integration should be in nautilus where everything else
> > vfs-related is found. A bluetooth link under computer:/// when an
> > adapter is present would be sufficient (though I wish we'd treat OBEX
> > more generically as well - it's got 3 or 4 transports besides
> > bluetooth).
>
> We know that OBEX supports more than the Bluetooth transport, but which
> of these transports actually have devices that support FTP like
> transactions. Most of them only allow to push or pull a file. However
> feel free to fix gnome-vfs-obexftp to make this work.
Quite a lot of devices support OBEX FTP over USB - and USB is a lot
faster and some more reliable than BT. Probably far fewer devices
that use OBEX over IrDA support anything but PUSH. And there may in
fact be no services or devices that do OBEX FTP over TCP, but the
underlying library (openobex) and the commandline client (obexftp)
support all of these.
> If you wanna have the Bluetooth adapters (yes, plural. We can have more
> than one) under computer:/// then go ahead a send patches upstream. I
> personally don't care and I am not responsible for that part of
> software.
Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned what I thought could be done in
other projects, that really has nothing to do with you.
> As usual with these kind of things, I am not the UI expert and if you
> wanna have fixed or changed something, you better send in a patch. We
> always welcome new development blood.
I'm not a UI expert either. I was just disappointed that the first
gnome (non-cli) interface for connecting to a bluetooth device was
really an interface to connect with an OBEX FTP device on a bluetooth
transport. I plainly admit that I had false assumptions about what
that feature was supposed to be and my disappointment is due primarily
to those false assumptions. It sounds like the preferences dialog and
the druid will cover my needs nicely.
Also thank you for being welcoming to new developers. I need to dive
into one of the projects I am interested in. I appreciate the idea
that I'd be welcomed if I chose bluez-gnome.
May I ask, by the way, if bluez-users was the wrong place to bring this up?
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Hi Marcel,
Currently i want to test bluetooth dongle for my development board
DBAu1200 i ported linux-2.6.11 kernel and enabled the required bluetooth
services and usb bluetooth driver .To test it i cross compiled the
bluez-libs-2.25 and bluez-utils-2.25 for MIPS architecture and for cross
compilation i followed the following documentation from uclinux please see
the following link docs.blackfin.uclinux.org/doku.php?id=blutooth_on_usb in
that instead of bfin-uclinux i used mipsel and for CPPFLAGS="-D__KERNEL" it
compiled successfully and i ported all the files under install folder,when i
tried to execute from board following was the error message,
Cannot execute the binary files.Could you guide where i am going wrong,
waiting for your valuable suggestions
Thank you
Regards
Umesh
On 8/10/07, Marcel Holtmann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> > Version 0.10 of bluez-gnome added support for "browsing devices" - a
> > much needed feature by any account. What I'm not thrilled about is
> > that it was written to support gnome-vfs-obexftp.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong - gnome-vfs-obexftp is awesome, but
> > bluetooth-applet is the wrong entry point for it. The applet should
> > allow you to see what devices are around you and allow you to initiate
> > a bonding with them but the assumption that you want to browse OBEX is
> > bad.
>
> it is exactly the right entry point. You might wanna compare how MacOS X
> handles it. The actual bonding will be done automatically. You are the
> client and so we can rely on the actual FTP server to ask for a bonding
> and not wasting time to try to pair a public FTP repository that has no
> key anyway.
>
> > Another problem with this approach is that it creates a dependency on
> > gnome-vfs-obexftp and assumes that it's present. If it's desirable to
> > have the applet launch other programs it should support more than
> > obex:// and there should be some generic mechanism for programs to
> > plug themselves in as handling a given service. It should be possible
> > some day to get a bluetooth mouse working from the GUI, or a bluetooth
> > headset, for example.
>
> It only supports Bluetooth FTP and is not meant to support everything.
> So I have no idea what you are talking about. Use the preferences dialog
> or the upcoming wizard to connect other type of Bluetooth devices.
>
> > Of course there needs to be better integration of gnome-vfs-obexftp,
> > but that integration should be in nautilus where everything else
> > vfs-related is found. A bluetooth link under computer:/// when an
> > adapter is present would be sufficient (though I wish we'd treat OBEX
> > more generically as well - it's got 3 or 4 transports besides
> > bluetooth).
>
> We know that OBEX supports more than the Bluetooth transport, but which
> of these transports actually have devices that support FTP like
> transactions. Most of them only allow to push or pull a file. However
> feel free to fix gnome-vfs-obexftp to make this work.
>
> If you wanna have the Bluetooth adapters (yes, plural. We can have more
> than one) under computer:/// then go ahead a send patches upstream. I
> personally don't care and I am not responsible for that part of
> software.
>
> As usual with these kind of things, I am not the UI expert and if you
> wanna have fixed or changed something, you better send in a patch. We
> always welcome new development blood.
>
> Regards
>
> Marcel
>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
> Bluez-users mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluez-users
>
Hi Andrew,
> Version 0.10 of bluez-gnome added support for "browsing devices" - a
> much needed feature by any account. What I'm not thrilled about is
> that it was written to support gnome-vfs-obexftp.
>
> Don't get me wrong - gnome-vfs-obexftp is awesome, but
> bluetooth-applet is the wrong entry point for it. The applet should
> allow you to see what devices are around you and allow you to initiate
> a bonding with them but the assumption that you want to browse OBEX is
> bad.
it is exactly the right entry point. You might wanna compare how MacOS X
handles it. The actual bonding will be done automatically. You are the
client and so we can rely on the actual FTP server to ask for a bonding
and not wasting time to try to pair a public FTP repository that has no
key anyway.
> Another problem with this approach is that it creates a dependency on
> gnome-vfs-obexftp and assumes that it's present. If it's desirable to
> have the applet launch other programs it should support more than
> obex:// and there should be some generic mechanism for programs to
> plug themselves in as handling a given service. It should be possible
> some day to get a bluetooth mouse working from the GUI, or a bluetooth
> headset, for example.
It only supports Bluetooth FTP and is not meant to support everything.
So I have no idea what you are talking about. Use the preferences dialog
or the upcoming wizard to connect other type of Bluetooth devices.
> Of course there needs to be better integration of gnome-vfs-obexftp,
> but that integration should be in nautilus where everything else
> vfs-related is found. A bluetooth link under computer:/// when an
> adapter is present would be sufficient (though I wish we'd treat OBEX
> more generically as well - it's got 3 or 4 transports besides
> bluetooth).
We know that OBEX supports more than the Bluetooth transport, but which
of these transports actually have devices that support FTP like
transactions. Most of them only allow to push or pull a file. However
feel free to fix gnome-vfs-obexftp to make this work.
If you wanna have the Bluetooth adapters (yes, plural. We can have more
than one) under computer:/// then go ahead a send patches upstream. I
personally don't care and I am not responsible for that part of
software.
As usual with these kind of things, I am not the UI expert and if you
wanna have fixed or changed something, you better send in a patch. We
always welcome new development blood.
Regards
Marcel
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