Well,
It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
Jeff
On 03/11/06, Jeff V. Merkey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Well,
>
> It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
>
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg
--
Jesper Juhl <[email protected]>
Don't top-post http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/top-post.html
Plain text mails only, please http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
Jesper Juhl wrote:
> On 03/11/06, Jeff V. Merkey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well,
>>
>> It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
>>
>
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg
>
>
Really,
I havc been inside both companies, and that's where this is going.
:-)
Jeff
> It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
(It's not clear what do you mean by "fork Linux". You mean fork the
kernel? Basically all the normal distributions are "forking the kernel"
and it seems to work fine. If not the kernel, it's even less clear.)
But I guess I just take you too seriously. ;-)
--
Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
Petr Baudis wrote:
>>It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
>>
>>
>
>(It's not clear what do you mean by "fork Linux". You mean fork the
>kernel? Basically all the normal distributions are "forking the kernel"
>and it seems to work fine. If not the kernel, it's even less clear.)
>
>But I guess I just take you too seriously. ;-)
>
>
>
No problem. I was shocked to see it happen, but I left Novell 10 years
ago trying to make
the same thing happen between the two, so today for me the future took
root in the
present. Seriously, Novell has a limited lifespan unless acquired, and
an M$ acquisition
would be a good thing for the company. Given the resources both
companies have, I
would expect the see them take Linux in another direction. Linux is just
out there floating
with no good anchorage for long term survival -- a lot like Novell. 1 +
1 = 0 in this case,
but with M$ assimilating it, 1 + 1 + 1 = 5 is possible.
At any rate, the Linux folks working for M$ is not an outcome I would
have expected, but
I was happy to hear it. Let's see what M$ comes up with as a Linux
knockoff and see who
uses it.
Jeff
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
so instead of about 600 git trees (all forks of the linus official
git tree), we will have 601 git trees? how exiting.
Andreas
On Friday 03 November 2006 06:40, Andreas Jellinghaus wrote:
>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>> It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
>
>so instead of about 600 git trees (all forks of the linus official
>git tree), we will have 601 git trees? how exiting.
>
>Andreas
Humm, was that spelling error intentional? It assuredly fits. :)
Personally, I'm not the least bit exCited, and I predict we can eventually
kiss Novell goodbye. We could dig up Ray and wrap his coffin in copper
coils to harness his spinning.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
Gene Heskett wrote:
>On Friday 03 November 2006 06:40, Andreas Jellinghaus wrote:
>
>
>>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
>>>
>>>
>>so instead of about 600 git trees (all forks of the linus official
>>git tree), we will have 601 git trees? how exiting.
>>
>>Andreas
>>
>>
>
>Humm, was that spelling error intentional? It assuredly fits. :)
>Personally, I'm not the least bit exCited, and I predict we can eventually
>kiss Novell goodbye. We could dig up Ray and wrap his coffin in copper
>coils to harness his spinning.
>
>
This statement is so true....
Jeff
On Thu, 2006-11-02 at 20:16 -0700, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
> Petr Baudis wrote:
> >>It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
Url?
Since it is official, there must be ome ...
[...]
> present. Seriously, Novell has a limited lifespan unless acquired, and
All stories I heard about Novell indicates that the life spam is much
more than a decade - no matter what (except exploding earth and similar
crash scenarios).
--
Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/
mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
Embedded Linux Development and Services
On Friday 03 November 2006 11:53, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>>On Friday 03 November 2006 06:40, Andreas Jellinghaus wrote:
>>>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>>>>It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
>>>
>>>so instead of about 600 git trees (all forks of the linus official
>>>git tree), we will have 601 git trees? how exiting.
>>>
>>>Andreas
>>
>>Humm, was that spelling error intentional? It assuredly fits. :)
>>Personally, I'm not the least bit exCited, and I predict we can
>> eventually kiss Novell goodbye. We could dig up Ray and wrap his
>> coffin in copper coils to harness his spinning.
>
>This statement is so true....
>
>Jeff
>
I should paint it on the wall, we, Jeff Merkey and I, finally agree on
something. :-)
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
On Friday, 3 de November de 2006 23:46, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> Url?
> Since it is official, there must be ome ...
Yes, there're many ;) The main one:
http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/
But probably the most interesting are:
http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq.html
and
http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html
--
edu
firmitas, utilitas, venustas
- Vitruvius, De Architectura
Hi!
> >>It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >(It's not clear what do you mean by "fork Linux". You mean fork the
> >kernel? Basically all the normal distributions are "forking the kernel"
> >and it seems to work fine. If not the kernel, it's even less clear.)
> >
> >But I guess I just take you too seriously. ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> No problem. I was shocked to see it happen, but I left Novell 10 years
> ago trying to make
> the same thing happen between the two, so today for me the future took
> root in the
> present. Seriously, Novell has a limited lifespan unless acquired, and
> an M$ acquisition
> would be a good thing for the company.
Now, agreement was a bad idea in the first place, and comments like...
This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
you are too.
(from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only make
it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has enough
cash for _that_.
Pavel
--
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html
On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:18 +0100, Pavel Machek wrote:
[...]
> This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
> rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
> you are too.
>
> (from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only make
> it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has enough
> cash for _that_.
And the first point in the list is "patents" ....
Bernd
--
Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/
mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
Embedded Linux Development and Services
Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
>On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:18 +0100, Pavel Machek wrote:
>[...]
>
>
>>This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
>>rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
>>you are too.
>>
>>
>>(from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only make
>>it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has enough
>>cash for _that_.
>>
>>
>
>And the first point in the list is "patents" ....
>
> Bernd
>
>
I can see the lights are coming on now for some folks now.
Jeff
On Tuesday 07 November 2006 11:54, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
>>On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:18 +0100, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>[...]
>>
>>>This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
>>>rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
>>>you are too.
>>>
>>>
>>>(from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only make
>>>it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has enough
>>>cash for _that_.
>>
>>And the first point in the list is "patents" ....
>>
>> Bernd
>
>I can see the lights are coming on now for some folks now.
>
>Jeff
The 'lights' have been on for quite some time Jeff, but getting our govmnt
to recognize that is going to take some housecleaning, which I intend to
do in the ballotbox yet this afternoon.
Wish us good luck in that endeavor folks.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:18 +0100, Pavel Machek wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>> This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
>>> rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
>>> you are too.
>>>
>>> (from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only make
>>> it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has enough
>>> cash for _that_.
>>>
>>
>>
>> And the first point in the list is "patents" ....
>>
>> Bernd
>>
>>
> I can see the lights are coming on now for some folks now.
> Jeff
>
<snip>
/"Microsoft made it clear that only SUSE users and developers, as well
as unsalaried Linux developers, are protected. 'Let me be clear about
one thing, we don't license our intellectual property to Linux because
of the way Linux licensing GPL framework works, that's not really a
possibility,' said Microsoft chief executive, Steve Ballmer. 'Novell is
actually just a proxy for its customers, and it's only for its
customers,' he added. 'This does not apply to any forms of Linux other
than Novell's SUSE Linux. And if people want to have peace and
interoperability, they'll look at Novell's SUSE Linux. If they make
other choices, they have all of the compliance and intellectual property
issues that are associated with that.'"
</snip>
And those lights are bright indeed ....
Jeff
/
On Tuesday 07 November 2006 15:14, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>> Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:18 +0100, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
>>>> rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
>>>> you are too.
>>>>
>>>> (from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only
>>>> make it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has
>>>> enough cash for _that_.
>>>
>>> And the first point in the list is "patents" ....
>>>
>>> Bernd
>>
>> I can see the lights are coming on now for some folks now.
>> Jeff
>
><snip>
>
>/"Microsoft made it clear that only SUSE users and developers, as well
>as unsalaried Linux developers, are protected. 'Let me be clear about
>one thing, we don't license our intellectual property to Linux because
>of the way Linux licensing GPL framework works, that's not really a
>possibility,' said Microsoft chief executive, Steve Ballmer. 'Novell is
>actually just a proxy for its customers, and it's only for its
>customers,' he added. 'This does not apply to any forms of Linux other
>than Novell's SUSE Linux. And if people want to have peace and
>interoperability, they'll look at Novell's SUSE Linux. If they make
>other choices, they have all of the compliance and intellectual property
>issues that are associated with that.'"
>
></snip>
>
>And those lights are bright indeed ....
>
>Jeff
Amen, Jeff, now where did I put my sunglasses, I want to watch this as
carefully as I watched the SCO debacle, at least till the outcome is
carved in legal decisions rendered. In a pinch I can go get my welding
helmet, its can auto-darken to ND13. But at that brightness, I want all
bare skin covered too, else instant sunburns...
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
Hi!
> >>>This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
> >>>rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
> >>>you are too.
> >>>
> >>>(from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only make
> >>>it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has enough
> >>>cash for _that_.
> >>
> >>And the first point in the list is "patents" ....
> >I can see the lights are coming on now for some folks now.
> <snip>
>
> /"Microsoft made it clear that only SUSE users and developers, as well
> as unsalaried Linux developers, are protected. 'Let me be clear about
> one thing, we don't license our intellectual property to Linux because
> of the way Linux licensing GPL framework works, that's not really a
> possibility,' said Microsoft chief executive, Steve Ballmer. 'Novell is
> actually just a proxy for its customers, and it's only for its
> customers,' he added. 'This does not apply to any forms of Linux other
> than Novell's SUSE Linux. And if people want to have peace and
> interoperability, they'll look at Novell's SUSE Linux. If they make
> other choices, they have all of the compliance and intellectual property
> issues that are associated with that.'"
>
> </snip>
>
> And those lights are bright indeed ....
Would you care to elaborate? All sorts of red lights are "on" here
from friday, some of them flashing...
Pavel
--
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html
On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:54 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:18 +0100, Pavel Machek wrote:
> >[...]
> >
> >
> >>This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
> >>rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
> >>you are too.
> >>
> >>
> >>(from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only make
> >>it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has enough
> >>cash for _that_.
[...]
> >And the first point in the list is "patents" ....
[...]
> I can see the lights are coming on now for some folks now.
How many patenst does Novell have? Do they play in the "more than 1000
trivial, prior art and software patents" league like M$?
So from Novell's point of view it is probably somewhat a cross-licensing
deal.
"What does M$ really gain from it?" is the interesting question.
Bernd
--
Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/
mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
Embedded Linux Development and Services
Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
>On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:54 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>>Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 09:18 +0100, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>This is a watershed moment for Linux. It fundamentally changes the
>>>>rules of the game. We're really excited about this deal, and we hope
>>>>you are too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>(from http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html) only make
>>>>it worse, but acquisition? I'd hope not even mickey$oft has enough
>>>>cash for _that_.
>>>>
>>>>
>[...]
>
>
>>>And the first point in the list is "patents" ....
>>>
>>>
>[...]
>
>
>>I can see the lights are coming on now for some folks now.
>>
>>
>
>How many patenst does Novell have? Do they play in the "more than 1000
>trivial, prior art and software patents" league like M$?
>So from Novell's point of view it is probably somewhat a cross-licensing
>deal.
>"What does M$ really gain from it?" is the interesting question.
>
> Bernd
>
>
The Pike patent from the USL acquisition is the one Microsoft most
wanted to get their hands on, as well as the SMP
patents. The Pike patent controls overlapping Windows. M$ has
wanted to get clear of it for some time. With the
cross license from Novell, they are home free. Novell has a large
number of networking and directory patents.
Not quite 1000, but they have some very good ones on SMP, clustering,
and form the USL acquisition.
Jeff
> <snip>
>
> /"Microsoft made it clear that only SUSE users and developers, as well
> as unsalaried Linux developers, are protected. 'Let me be clear about
> one thing, we don't license our intellectual property to Linux because
> of the way Linux licensing GPL framework works, that's not really a
> possibility,' said Microsoft chief executive, Steve Ballmer. 'Novell is
> actually just a proxy for its customers, and it's only for its
> customers,' he added. 'This does not apply to any forms of Linux other
> than Novell's SUSE Linux. And if people want to have peace and
> interoperability, they'll look at Novell's SUSE Linux. If they make
> other choices, they have all of the compliance and intellectual property
> issues that are associated with that.'"
>
> </snip>
>
> And those lights are bright indeed ....
Maybe I'm dense, but doesn't the GPL say:
7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent
infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues),
conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or
otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not
excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot
distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this
License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you
may not distribute the Program at all.
If SUSE Linux contains derivative works of GPL'd works that Novell wants to
distribute, they must ensure that their customers may engage in royalty-free
redistribution and that the recipients of the redistribution can lawfully
engage in the expected use.
And of course:
You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
parties under the terms of this License.
How can they do that if licensing the work requires licensing patents that
Novell has no right to license?
It seems absolutely 100% clear to me that you cannot distribute under the
GPL a work whose ordinary use requires obtaining a patent license that is
not freely avialable to anyone who possess the work. You cannot distribute a
GPL'd work with a non-shareable "right to use" that work. If that's not
precisely what section 7 is trying to say, what else could it possibly mean?
DS
On 11/7/06, David Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:
> How can they do that if licensing the work requires licensing patents that
> Novell has no right to license?
rtfa: http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html
May not be correct, but it's an answer nonetheless :)
--
avuton
--
Anyone who quotes me in their sig is an idiot. -- Rusty Russell.
On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 21:11 -0800, Avuton Olrich wrote:
> On 11/7/06, David Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:
> > How can they do that if licensing the work requires licensing patents that
> > Novell has no right to license?
>
> rtfa: http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html
>
> May not be correct, but it's an answer nonetheless :)
If I understand the first answer correctly, there actually is:
---- snip ----
This agreement is primarily intended for Novell's customers. It doesn't
imply or guarantee that you are *not* sued. An exception may be if you
are a customer of Novell, than M$ will not sue you *directly*.
So for all Non-Novell customers: You may be sued directly from M$ (and
from all others).
So for all: You may be sued indirectly by M$ (and directly from all
others).
---- snip ----
SCNR,
Bernd
--
Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/
mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
Embedded Linux Development and Services
On Nov 08, 2006, at 00:11:05, Avuton Olrich wrote:
> On 11/7/06, David Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:
>> How can they do that if licensing the work requires licensing
>> patents that Novell has no right to license?
>
> rtfa: http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html
>
> May not be correct, but it's an answer nonetheless :)
I'm not a lawyer, but from my understanding of the GPL and that page:
> Our agreement with Microsoft is focused on our customers, and does
> not include a patent license or covenant not to sue from Microsoft
> to Novell (or, for that matter, from Novell to Microsoft).
So the agreement says nothing about Novell <=> Microsoft patent
issues or lawsuits.
> Novell's customers receive a covenant not to sue directly from
> Microsoft.
> [...]
> Novell's end user customers receive a covenant not to sue directly
> from Microsoft for their use of Novell products and services, but
> these activities are outside the scope of the GPL.
But it does say that Microsoft agrees not to sue Novell's customers
over patent issues in the GPL software that Novell distributes to its
customers. What this means is that Novell's customers effectively
have patent licenses from Microsoft permitting them to use any GPL
software distributed by Novell involving Microsoft's patents.
The real question is how this affects Novell's customers. Can they
distribute GPL'd software that "infringes" on a Microsoft patent?
They have the rights to use that software but anyone who received
that software from them would not, therefore according to the GPL
they may not distribute at all, right? In my opinion the only way
that Novell's customers could legally distribute such "infringing"
software would be by waiving the protection offered them by Microsoft
through Novell.
Of course, this also means that it would be illegal for Microsoft to
distribute such software; but I doubt that's likely to be an issue.
Cheers,
Kyle Moffett
On 03-11-2006 00:14, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>
> Well,
>
> It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
I'd prefer:
"Another Faustian Pact between Linux and Corporate World"
Let's be real:
Do you know all papers and words between Red Hat or OSDL
and say IBM or HP?
Did you regard Novell as linux defender or guardian-angel?
Are you afraid or more afraid?
Did Microsoft ever need Novell to sue anybody?
I don't think so.
Jarek P.
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:10:50 +0100
Jarek Poplawski <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 03-11-2006 00:14, Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
> >
> > Well,
> >
> > It's official. Microsoft and Novell will now fork Linux.
>
>
> I'd prefer:
>
> "Another Faustian Pact between Linux and Corporate World"
>
> Let's be real:
>
> Do you know all papers and words between Red Hat or OSDL
> and say IBM or HP?
>
> Did you regard Novell as linux defender or guardian-angel?
>
> Are you afraid or more afraid?
>
> Did Microsoft ever need Novell to sue anybody?
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Jarek P.
> -
Just follow the money trail if you want to know what agreements are
in place. The OSDL funding process is open if you look a the membership
levels and the required funding.
http://groups.osdl.org/join/membership_levels
As a non-profit OSDL is under close scrutiny by IRS and the member companies.
There are non hidden agenda deals here.
Companies with direct sales to end-users are always making partner
arrangements; that is the nature of business. But like teenagers the
romances don't always last long, and someone usually gets dropped.
--
Stephen Hemminger <[email protected]>
Ar Mer, 2006-11-08 am 11:45 -0800, ysgrifennodd Stephen Hemminger:
> Companies with direct sales to end-users are always making partner
> arrangements; that is the nature of business. But like teenagers the
> romances don't always last long, and someone usually gets dropped.
Usually on their head
