http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2003/01/20/story1.html
The hardcopy edition is better.
It has sweet little TUX snacking on a Windows Logo!
Go to http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/ next saturday and see this
weeks print cover on the web!
Cheers,
Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group
> The hardcopy edition is better.
> It has sweet little TUX snacking on a Windows Logo!
I hope poor little tux doesn't get a virus from that.
--
Lab tests show that use of micro$oft causes cancer in lab animals
> http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2003/01/20/story1.html
>
> The hardcopy edition is better.
> It has sweet little TUX snacking on a Windows Logo!
> Go to http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/ next saturday and see this
> weeks print cover on the web!
Linux will NEVER move into the desktop market!!! Linux has found it
niche in the server market and some aspects of the embedded market. Well
it is struggling to keep alive in the embedded space. Why is this?
Number one reason it will never move into the desktop market is the
free beer mentality. Alot of people expect something for nothing or
next to it. I not just talking users. Even multi-billion dollar companies.
I had a large company tell me "You are charging us? That is not very open
source of you!!" As for end users the same problem exist. Plus companies
toke note that it would cost them money to hire some to port their
software.
The only reason linux toke off the last few years is because companies
thought it could make pure profits by using free stuff. Well they are
discovering linux does have a cost. You have to actually hire programmers
and you need people to actually understand linux. We will see linux
adaption slow down if not come to a halt in all markets except the server
and none GUI interface embedded devices such as telecom devcies.
Some at this point might stand up and shout what about PDAs. First this
is a very vertical market. In the real world you see lots of Palm Pilots
and a few iPAQs here and there. I never seen a linux PDA in large use.
iPAQs can run linux but they will never ship will linux. I worked with
several experimental PDAs. Several that never made it to market and even
more the companies deceided linux was to immature compared to Windows CE
so moved to using a M$ product.
What is the immature? The bare basics is stable and fine but people
want more than just to login in via a serial console. I seen alot of nice
development of new types of GUI. Out of the few dozen vendors all but
one decided not to go with X windows. BTW that one moved over to windows
CE later. These companies felt X was a hinderance. So they went to other
GUIs like microwindows or embedded Qt. Still there is a lack of apps and
a even greater lack of comapnies wanting to write apps for linux PDAs.
Now for the issue of the desktop itself. We have the basic two problems
above. The biggest issue with X is the long developement cycle. The good
news is since NVIDIA, which makes there own X server and drivers, is the
dominate graphics card we don't feel it so much. If we had 20 to 30
graphics cards with equal market space we would notice. Especially when
the graphics cards were have 6 month cycles before they become obsolete.
So what is my PROOF of all this. First take a look at the linux jobs
out there. You will notices System Admin jobs. Several of those in fact.
Then the development jobs are iSCSI or network card or some other aspect
of network programming. Now look for a GNOME or KDE programming job
outside of a distro looking to hire someone. I seen only one in Austalia.
Now try a search in flipdog.com, CareerBuilder.com, or HotJobs.com for a
GNOME or KDE jobs. Well what do you know. No jobs avaible. So no company
is looking to either port there software to linux nor create new linux
software. Mind you a few companies tried like lokigames. Now they are
gone. Next level is graphics and multimedia programming in linux. Again
nothing really avaiable.
Now the next question is what companies invest in non sever related
matterial for linux i.e mulitmedia, GNOME, KDE, X outside of the distros.
I know people there are people on the list from IBM, HP etc who are
reading this email. Speak up if this in not the case. The only one I knew
of was VA linux. They hired several of the DRI/X windows developers. To
my knowledge they no longer work there. So the only companies pursing non
server related are the distros. Now the question is hwo many will be left
soon. One of them filed for a form of bankruptcy a few days ago. Very few
remain. Also we are seeing the strongs one move to where the money is. The
server market. So I wouldn't count on any R&D from anyone to much to move
linux to the desktop.
On Tuesday 21 January 2003 04:26 pm, James Simmons wrote:
> > http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2003/01/20/story1.html
> >
> > The hardcopy edition is better.
> > It has sweet little TUX snacking on a Windows Logo!
> > Go to http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/ next saturday and see this
> > weeks print cover on the web!
>
> Linux will NEVER move into the desktop market!!! Linux has found it
> niche in the server market and some aspects of the embedded market. Well
> it is struggling to keep alive in the embedded space. Why is this?
> Number one reason it will never move into the desktop market is the
> free beer mentality. Alot of people expect something for nothing or
> next to it. I not just talking users. Even multi-billion dollar companies.
> I had a large company tell me "You are charging us? That is not very open
> source of you!!" As for end users the same problem exist. Plus companies
> toke note that it would cost them money to hire some to port their
> software.
Yup - just as they would have to hire programmers to port any program.
"There is no such thing as portable programs... only programs that have been
ported"...
...
> What is the immature? The bare basics is stable and fine but people
> want more than just to login in via a serial console. I seen alot of nice
> development of new types of GUI. Out of the few dozen vendors all but
> one decided not to go with X windows. BTW that one moved over to windows
> CE later. These companies felt X was a hinderance. So they went to other
> GUIs like microwindows or embedded Qt. Still there is a lack of apps and
> a even greater lack of comapnies wanting to write apps for linux PDAs.
Neither has anything to do with Linux itself.. only that M$ suppressed vendors
of applications...
X is a serious load unless you are expecting to work with multiple hosts, all
sending windows back to the same server. In which case, nothing else works as
well, nor as portably. Any standard X application can display to any
reasonably standard X server.
> Now for the issue of the desktop itself. We have the basic two problems
> above. The biggest issue with X is the long developement cycle. The good
> news is since NVIDIA, which makes there own X server and drivers, is the
> dominate graphics card we don't feel it so much. If we had 20 to 30
> graphics cards with equal market space we would notice. Especially when
> the graphics cards were have 6 month cycles before they become obsolete.
And the problem is ????
The long development cycle has a lot to do with the lack of specifications for
the hardware.
>
> So what is my PROOF of all this. First take a look at the linux jobs
> out there. You will notices System Admin jobs. Several of those in fact.
If the job says UNIX it implies Linux.. or so the ones I have been looking at.
> Then the development jobs are iSCSI or network card or some other aspect
> of network programming. Now look for a GNOME or KDE programming job
> outside of a distro looking to hire someone. I seen only one in Austalia.
So what.. I do interfaces using Motif. Can work fine on Linux or SGI...
GNOME/KDE is not quite as portable.
> Now try a search in flipdog.com, CareerBuilder.com, or HotJobs.com for a
> GNOME or KDE jobs. Well what do you know. No jobs avaible. So no company
> is looking to either port there software to linux nor create new linux
> software.
not true:
2 for "X Window"
10 for "X Windows"
13 for Motif
And that after only three shots... 25 total (I'm assuming there aren't any
overlaps for the moment).
> Mind you a few companies tried like lokigames. Now they are
> gone. Next level is graphics and multimedia programming in linux. Again
> nothing really avaiable.
> Now the next question is what companies invest in non sever related
> matterial for linux i.e mulitmedia, GNOME, KDE, X outside of the distros.
none of the located jobs are distribution suppliers.
> I know people there are people on the list from IBM, HP etc who are
> reading this email. Speak up if this in not the case. The only one I knew
> of was VA linux. They hired several of the DRI/X windows developers. To
> my knowledge they no longer work there. So the only companies pursing non
> server related are the distros. Now the question is hwo many will be left
> soon. One of them filed for a form of bankruptcy a few days ago. Very few
> remain. Also we are seeing the strongs one move to where the money is. The
> server market. So I wouldn't count on any R&D from anyone to much to move
> linux to the desktop.
The projects currently underway for doing the desktop haven't asked for R&D
funds, to my knowlege.
HOWEVER - there were 15000+ workstations that converted to StarOffice last
year (DISA - a government agency). Since StarOffice works on both Linux and M$
I see that as a win. And there are a LOT of OpenOffice (the free version)
installations.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: [email protected]
Any opinions expressed are solely my own.
sort of off-topic, please direct responses to email.
James Simmons wrote:
>
> Linux will NEVER move into the desktop market!!!
>
If that's true we're already dead.
But I don't accept that defeatist attitude,
and I haven't had any use for a non-linux
OS in the server room or on the desktop
for some years.
See Linus' reasons for why the desktop is
important - in a nutshell, if you abandon the
desktop to some crappy monopolist, and
hunker down and hide in the server room,
guess what? you won't be safe there either.
The viability of linux on the desktop is very
important - to stress the importance of the
desktop, look at two ends of the spectrum:
At one end, an excellent OS like freebsd -
it excels in the server room, but it's losing
ground to ms windows just the same -
Why? because folks don't use freebsd on
the desktop - not even freebsd bigots.
At the other end we have crap ms windoze,
which is silly to put in the server room, but
folks are doing it - why? because they are
familiar with ms windows and that means
a lot to them.
Bottom line: server-only OSes are in danger
of becoming irrelevant, because once ms can
claim 100 percent (or close) of the desktop,
they can then leverage the desktop monopoly
to dictate what's allowed in the server room.
Joe
jjs <[email protected]> writes:
>Bottom line: server-only OSes are in danger
>of becoming irrelevant, because once ms can
>claim 100 percent (or close) of the desktop,
>they can then leverage the desktop monopoly
>to dictate what's allowed in the server room.
True spoken. See also "Novell Netware" (Server only OS) or "IBM OS/2"
(Desktop only OS).
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [email protected]
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 [email protected]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, James Simmons wrote:
>
> > http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2003/01/20/story1.html
> >
> > The hardcopy edition is better.
> > It has sweet little TUX snacking on a Windows Logo!
> > Go to http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/ next saturday and see this
> > weeks print cover on the web!
>
> Linux will NEVER move into the desktop market!!! Linux has found it
> niche in the server market and some aspects of the embedded market. Well
> it is struggling to keep alive in the embedded space. Why is this?
Ah, the force of evil have gone from hiring people to write letters to
congressmen and editors to posting trolls in mailing lists...
The truth is that HP is selling Linux machines now for desktop use,
Wal-Mart (of all places) is selling them, mail order houses are starting
to offer Linux installed... the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal coexisted for
millenia, Linux can coexist with an evolutionary dead end as well. Only I
suspect that it will be a few decades in this case.
Don't believe that the desktop drives the computer room, either. The
dollar drives both, and if non-tech companies like Boscov's department
store are going to Linux servers, I would assume the cost of Windows on
the desktop isn't invisible in those places. Erosion is barely visible
until the landslide.
--
bill davidsen <[email protected]>
CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.
> > Linux will NEVER move into the desktop market!!! Linux has found it
> > niche in the server market and some aspects of the embedded market. Well
> > it is struggling to keep alive in the embedded space. Why is this?
I remember a saying from a cartoon:
"Never say never, ever" - splinter from teenage mutant hero turtles. :)
Since i switched to linux for my desktop i feel all powerful, working
great, and the sky is the limit.
Just my 0.03$ there
Regards,
Maciej
> The long development cycle has a lot to do with the lack of specifications for
> the hardware.
True but also due to the fact that many of the people involved do this in
there spare time versus for a living. 5 hours a week versus 40 makes a big
difference in how fast something comes to completion.
> > Now try a search in flipdog.com, CareerBuilder.com, or HotJobs.com for a
> > GNOME or KDE jobs. Well what do you know. No jobs avaible. So no company
> > is looking to either port there software to linux nor create new linux
> > software.
>
> not true:
> 2 for "X Window"
> 10 for "X Windows"
> 13 for Motif
Unfoturnely the search engines are not that good. Because of the space in
X windows you end you getting M$ windows programming jobs. The motif jobs
are the most accurate.
> The projects currently underway for doing the desktop haven't asked for R&D
> funds, to my knowlege.
And if they ask do you think they get it? I wonder. OpenOffice does have a
full time staff since Sun has a stake in things. Othewise it wouldn't get
where it is today.
> HOWEVER - there were 15000+ workstations that converted to StarOffice last
> year (DISA - a government agency). Since StarOffice works on both Linux and M$
> I see that as a win. And there are a LOT of OpenOffice (the free version)
> installations.
Note free versions. I guess if Sun can afford to lose 2 billions dollars
it can afford to give a office suite away. The question if Sun runs out of
money then what?
On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:11:53 GMT, James Simmons said:
> Note free versions. I guess if Sun can afford to lose 2 billions dollars
> it can afford to give a office suite away. The question if Sun runs out of
> money then what?
It's open sourced. The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
> > 2 for "X Window"
> > 10 for "X Windows"
> > 13 for Motif
>
> Unfoturnely the search engines are not that good.
Actually, they are not that inaccurate, considering that there is no
such thing as "X Windows".
The name of the software you are refering to is The X Window System,
or just X. The version that is commonly in use these days is often
called X11R6, X11, or R6.
Why is this mistake almost never mentioned, and yet the discussions
about whether Linux or GNU/Linux is the correct never seem to stop?
John.
On Wednesday 22 January 2003 04:11 pm, James Simmons wrote:
> > The long development cycle has a lot to do with the lack of
> > specifications for the hardware.
>
> True but also due to the fact that many of the people involved do this in
> there spare time versus for a living. 5 hours a week versus 40 makes a big
> difference in how fast something comes to completion.
According to the XFree86 web pages - they have a LOT of corporate
sponsors contributing both money, jobs, and equipment. They do get paid
back by being able to generate custom graphics interfaces for their hardware.
> > > Now try a search in flipdog.com, CareerBuilder.com, or HotJobs.com for
> > > a GNOME or KDE jobs. Well what do you know. No jobs avaible. So no
> > > company is looking to either port there software to linux nor create
> > > new linux software.
> >
> > not true:
> > 2 for "X Window"
> > 10 for "X Windows"
> > 13 for Motif
>
> Unfoturnely the search engines are not that good. Because of the space in
> X windows you end you getting M$ windows programming jobs. The motif jobs
> are the most accurate.
Possibly - though the ones I did look at were referring to X windows (note the
phrase IS quoted, and treated as one phrase, not two independant words).
On another job site I got 291 responses for UNIX OR LINUX, and most of those
had both entries, and several with GUI requirements. (The Tivoli port
positions looked most interesting)
> > The projects currently underway for doing the desktop haven't asked for
> > R&D funds, to my knowlege.
>
> And if they ask do you think they get it? I wonder. OpenOffice does have a
> full time staff since Sun has a stake in things. Othewise it wouldn't get
> where it is today.
I don't think Open Office itself has funding, other than that provided by the
web site. It inherits updates from StarOffice, and vice versa. Now that
RH (and other) distributions are including OpenOffice and/or StarOffice, I do
think that funding will increase - there is now a market demand.
> > HOWEVER - there were 15000+ workstations that converted to StarOffice
> > last year (DISA - a government agency). Since StarOffice works on both
> > Linux and M$ I see that as a win. And there are a LOT of OpenOffice (the
> > free version) installations.
>
> Note free versions. I guess if Sun can afford to lose 2 billions dollars
> it can afford to give a office suite away. The question if Sun runs out of
> money then what?
Nothing - development goes on in the free version.
And actually, sun didn't loose 2 billions... (they didn't have it to start
with). What they gained was a LOT of converts that now want StarOffice, if
they want active support.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: [email protected]
Any opinions expressed are solely my own.
On Wednesday 22 January 2003 04:38 pm, John Bradford wrote:
> > > 2 for "X Window"
> > > 10 for "X Windows"
> > > 13 for Motif
> >
> > Unfoturnely the search engines are not that good.
>
> Actually, they are not that inaccurate, considering that there is no
> such thing as "X Windows".
>
> The name of the software you are refering to is The X Window System,
> or just X. The version that is commonly in use these days is often
> called X11R6, X11, or R6.
>
> Why is this mistake almost never mentioned, and yet the discussions
> about whether Linux or GNU/Linux is the correct never seem to stop?
>
> John.
Yes - I knew about that mistake, which is what I assumed when I made the
query. HR droids insist on putting the "s" on it because it "just rolls off
the tongue" so easily. It is also because M$ shoves the word as belonging to
them so hard in their advertising.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: [email protected]
Any opinions expressed are solely my own.
James Simmons <[email protected]> writes:
>Note free versions. I guess if Sun can afford to lose 2 billions dollars
>it can afford to give a office suite away. The question if Sun runs out of
>money then what?
"We give away for free what you sell". Worked for them when squashing
Netscape, why shouldn't it work for Sun and OpenOffice?"
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [email protected]
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 [email protected]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
[email protected] writes:
>It's open sourced. The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
Netscape was open sourced too and look what it took to bring it where
it is now. This is not your average 2,500 lines GNU tool. Even the
Linux kernel isn't that complex. It is written in a much simpler
language (C vs. C++) and if you remove all the drivers, you end up
with quite a compact core.
OpenOffice installed more than 300 (!) Megabytes software while RedHat
8 install. Linux kernel with all options is what? 2 MBytes?
I'd think, most people simply underestimate the complexity of some
dozen millions of lines of projected, specified and engineered
code. This isn't the same league as your average php open source
project. Maybe not even the same discipline.
Enough exercising for you?
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [email protected]
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 [email protected]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:01:23 GMT, "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <[email protected]> said:
> [email protected] writes:
> >It's open sourced. The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
> <much very correct analysis by Henning elided>
> Enough exercising for you?
Yes, I'm fully aware of the size of OpenOffice. So far I've had at least
a dozen people who apparently didn't pick up on the sarcasm without a smiley.
Now to tie it back to another thread - the OpenOffice is just so honking HUGE
that a good case could be made that the source tarball is not the preferred
form for making modifications, because that sucker *has* to be in an IDE for
you to be able to find what it is you wanted to modify. ;)
(And guys? There's a smiley on that this time...)
/Valdis
On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:01:23 GMT, "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <[email protected]> said:
> > [email protected] writes:
> > >It's open sourced. The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.
> > <much very correct analysis by Henning elided>
> > Enough exercising for you?
>
> Yes, I'm fully aware of the size of OpenOffice. So far I've had at least
> a dozen people who apparently didn't pick up on the sarcasm without a smiley.
>
> Now to tie it back to another thread - the OpenOffice is just so honking HUGE
> that a good case could be made that the source tarball is not the preferred
> form for making modifications, because that sucker *has* to be in an IDE for
> you to be able to find what it is you wanted to modify. ;)
Well last time I checked most things are stored in an IDE (disk);
regardless of the tools. I could not let this one slip by.
Cheers,
Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:26:38 +0000 (GMT)
James Simmons <[email protected]> wrote:
> Some at this point might stand up and shout what about PDAs. First this
> is a very vertical market. In the real world you see lots of Palm Pilots
> and a few iPAQs here and there. I never seen a linux PDA in large use.
> iPAQs can run linux but they will never ship will linux. I worked with
> several experimental PDAs. Several that never made it to market and even
> more the companies deceided linux was to immature compared to Windows CE
> so moved to using a M$ product.
I normally try to avoid replying to blatant trolls, but this time I'll make an
exception...
Take a look at this:
http://www.sharp.co.jp/products/slc700/index.html
A Linux-based PDA from Sharp (not exactly a two-bit operation), selling quite
nicely thank you very much.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 02:33:14PM -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, James Simmons wrote:
> > > http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2003/01/20/story1.html
[..]
> > Linux will NEVER move into the desktop market!!! Linux has found it
> > niche in the server market and some aspects of the embedded market. Well
> > it is struggling to keep alive in the embedded space. Why is this?
>
> The truth is that HP is selling Linux machines now for desktop use,
> Wal-Mart (of all places) is selling them, mail order houses are starting
> to offer Linux installed... the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal coexisted for
Thought I'd drop by and mention we have a client who is seriously
considering migrating 2000 user desktops to Linux. :)
--
Ragnar Hojland - Project Manager
Linalco "Especialistas Linux y en Software Libre"
http://www.linalco.com Tel: +34-91-5970074 Fax: +34-91-5970083